Rac80
The Belle of the Ball
I actually think Infinity was better!
Just how many bridges did TPTB burn when they made Stargate Universe?
- Thread starter Overmind One
- Start date
Omnipotent
GateFans Noob
you are not aloneI actually think Infinity was better!
Omnipotent
GateFans Noob
Almost forgot one of the more important bridges TPTB burnt with this show. The Stargate Canon is soiled permanently in this version of the franchise. All in the interest of copying the darker elements of Battlestar Galactica, the Destiny is designed differently from all the Ancient designs we have seen in SG-1 and SGA. But it looks very similar to Battlestar Galactica and even Serenity from Firefly.
View attachment 1072
Destiny's existence makes no sense
Rush says in the begininning of this show that Destiny's design is "obviously Ancient". Really? To most Stargate fans, the design is obviously NOT Ancient. This ship was supposedly launched millions of years ago, along with seeder ships. But the show does not discuss why this ship was not mentioned in the Atlantis database (it doesnt mention the existence of Atlantis at all, for the most part). The show has had Daniel Jackson on as a cameo, and therefore he is available through the communications stones...so why hasnt he found Destiny or any of the seeder ships in any Ancient database? We know the Ancients were very concerned with interference with humans and other beings. Why would they not destroy Destiny and the seeder ships after they learned to ascend?
The Spinning Stargate and missing DHDs
Why would the Ancients build a stargate which requires moving parts in its base to operate? Also, the design of a spinning gate means that a base to spin it is REQUIRED wherever they are deployed. They dont make sense, and the fact that they require a handheld device to dial them makes no sense at all. This is one of the biggest plotholes in the show, because the purpose of the seeder ship and Destiny seems pointless. Why establish a network of gates that are short range and require a handheld device to use them? Makes no sense. The canon is soiled by this lack of logic, the same way one starts to see the signs of dementia in elderly people. The fact that this show has presented these gates and this ruins the canon.
TPTB cant go back and undo season 1 and the ridiculous scenes and events we witnessed. If we are to accept Stargate Universe as Stargate canon, then that means that Eli and Chloe using the communications stones to visit a nightclub and get drunk and cry to each other in a car is part of Stargate? Does it mean that the same US Air Force which showed such decorum and professionalism in SG-1 is perfectly okay with allowing the use of top secret Ancient technology to visit earth in somebody else's body to have sex or bake cookies? This show went too far in an effort to appeal to a larger audience and they ruined the franchise with it.
Bridge burnt.
in all honesty tho these bunch of of unmentionables (TPTB) have NEVER been to good with continuety and cannon so this is a recurring trend in the story of the stargate franchiese however SGU definatly went ten steps further in that regard.
what i dont understand is if Stargate was your "baby" wouldnt you want it to be as good as it can be?
apearantly not and we get halfarsed storys and episodes shoved down our throats under the gaise of "no one will notice" not only reffering to SGU here Sg1 SGA both had their problems in certain areas cannon being one but SGU is even worse.. the snowball effect comes to mind..
anyway i blame TPTB as i think they are just in it for the money not the "Art" so to speak and sure its fine to be in it just for the money but your art shouldnt be cheapened BC of it.
/Rant
CommanderOZ
GateFans Noob
The biggest bridge they burnt was when SGU got approval. If they were serious about making a decent follow up of SG1 and SGA, they should have down as so many writers (Fans) have done successfully, Aragon being one of them, and made a show which brought in elements of both shows. I've been poo-pooed for saying this before as dickheads say that would be totally unworkable. The initial spoilers for Fait Accompli show how it could be done. Even my own sad little saga will eventually include an Atlantis arc, but at the same time not move out of the SG1 sphere. It's simple math, take two good basic elements and make a better one.
Aragon101
Illusive Deity of Fanfic
Argh! I'm still waiting on Brandon to finish writing the next chapter of Fait! It's been forever but once he sends it to me, i'll proofread and then Shawna will go over it too.The biggest bridge they burnt was when SGU got approval. If they were serious about making a decent follow up of SG1 and SGA, they should have down as so many writers (Fans) have done successfully, Aragon being one of them, and made a show which brought in elements of both shows. I've been poo-pooed for saying this before as dickheads say that would be totally unworkable. The initial spoilers for Fait Accompli show how it could be done. Even my own sad little saga will eventually include an Atlantis arc, but at the same time not move out of the SG1 sphere. It's simple math, take two good basic elements and make a better one.
For those not in the know, Fait Accompli is a "Final" season Fanfiction story i've organized between several writers to give SG-1 a proper ending. It's a mix of all three shows including both the LA element from SGU (except given a real credible threat level), the Atlantis on Earth element from SGA's finale, as well as SG-1's team adventure story.
Here's the first chapter which i wrote, and SBZ copyedited
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6101858/1/
Questions
Okay, does Destiny get blown up? Do Chloe and Scott die in the vacuum of space? When you say the "LA element of SGU", do they survive whatever they are doing in the SGU universe? I hate SGU so much, I am not really sure I would want to read fanfiction which includes SGU in it, unless its mentioned in passing that it was a shame the ship got blown up with all hands aboard!
Seriously, when you finish it, please PM me a link.
Argh! I'm still waiting on Brandon to finish writing the next chapter of Fait! It's been forever but once he sends it to me, i'll proofread and then Shawna will go over it too.
For those not in the know, Fait Accompli is a "Final" season Fanfiction story i've organized between several writers to give SG-1 a proper ending. It's a mix of all three shows including both the LA element from SGU (except given a real credible threat level), the Atlantis on Earth element from SGA's finale, as well as SG-1's team adventure story.
Here's the first chapter which i wrote, and SBZ copyedited
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6101858/1/
Okay, does Destiny get blown up? Do Chloe and Scott die in the vacuum of space? When you say the "LA element of SGU", do they survive whatever they are doing in the SGU universe? I hate SGU so much, I am not really sure I would want to read fanfiction which includes SGU in it, unless its mentioned in passing that it was a shame the ship got blown up with all hands aboard!
Seriously, when you finish it, please PM me a link.
Aragon101
Illusive Deity of Fanfic
Think of it like the SG-1 side of the story. SGU won't be involved in anything more than passing ocmments.Okay, does Destiny get blown up? Do Chloe and Scott die in the vacuum of space? When you say the "LA element of SGU", do they survive whatever they are doing in the SGU universe? I hate SGU so much, I am not really sure I would want to read fanfiction which includes SGU in it, unless its mentioned in passing that it was a shame the ship got blown up with all hands aboard!
Seriously, when you finish it, please PM me a link.
By far, the most important thing is that the LA are NOT a mafia style band of bumbling idiots. They're mote like guerilla insurgents and political masterminds with blackmail and such.
PJ's unwittingly helped me design the story
it's very much an SG-1 finale since it has all our faves, and alot of recognizable faces. We'll see the Trust, the LA, Hebridians, Jonas Quinn 
Whuahahahahaha!!!!Won't be done for awhile, it's definitely SG-1 style even though there are going to be some very dark moments (especially the mid-seaosn and the finale)
Because that's just it. It's not hte fact that SGu is 'darker' 'grittier' or more 'realistic' that makes it bad. its the fact that SGU just FAILS to do it properly
Hell, the only reason i even think of myself being able to say this sort of thing is because i've spent quite some time practicing and researching the subject.
They just got this show SO WRONG! I was actually ready for a new style of Stargate.
I was actually prepared for a darker edgier Stargate show. I knew it was going to be unlike the other shows which came before it, the trailers which aired before the show premiered in October gave me a peek, it looked sorta good...the characters didnt do much for me at first glance, but it was Stargate for chrissakes! I was ready, chomping at the bit. I watched the premiere live, and within the first 20 minutes I was sitting with my cheek resting on my palm propped up. By the time the second half rolled around, I was getting sleepy, and I was angry. They never fixed it...it just got worse and worse, and sillier and more retarded as time went on. Now, its fully bonkers and this season for me is going to be a comedy of ratings, events and hopefully ends in cancellation of Stargate Universe.
I think fans should be looking for a way to write out Stargate Universe from the canon in a believable way, leaving the actual Stargate universe intact and unaffected. I just dont see a connection between the SGU universe and the Stargate universe. Perhaps put them in a different dimension or timeline? Perhaps dialing that 9th chevron put them in an alternate reality or something. Just....make them gone!
Think of it like the SG-1 side of the story. SGU won't be involved in anything more than passing ocmments.
By far, the most important thing is that the LA are NOT a mafia style band of bumbling idiots. They're mote like guerilla insurgents and political masterminds with blackmail and such.
PJ's unwittingly helped me design the story
Won't be done for awhile, it's definitely SG-1 style even though there are going to be some very dark moments (especially the mid-seaosn and the finale)
Because that's just it. It's not hte fact that SGu is 'darker' 'grittier' or more 'realistic' that makes it bad. its the fact that SGU just FAILS to do it properly
I was actually prepared for a darker edgier Stargate show. I knew it was going to be unlike the other shows which came before it, the trailers which aired before the show premiered in October gave me a peek, it looked sorta good...the characters didnt do much for me at first glance, but it was Stargate for chrissakes! I was ready, chomping at the bit. I watched the premiere live, and within the first 20 minutes I was sitting with my cheek resting on my palm propped up. By the time the second half rolled around, I was getting sleepy, and I was angry. They never fixed it...it just got worse and worse, and sillier and more retarded as time went on. Now, its fully bonkers and this season for me is going to be a comedy of ratings, events and hopefully ends in cancellation of Stargate Universe.
I think fans should be looking for a way to write out Stargate Universe from the canon in a believable way, leaving the actual Stargate universe intact and unaffected. I just dont see a connection between the SGU universe and the Stargate universe. Perhaps put them in a different dimension or timeline? Perhaps dialing that 9th chevron put them in an alternate reality or something. Just....make them gone!
Aragon101
Illusive Deity of Fanfic
I feel there's three ways to go.I was actually prepared for a darker edgier Stargate show. I knew it was going to be unlike the other shows which came before it, the trailers which aired before the show premiered in October gave me a peek, it looked sorta good...the characters didnt do much for me at first glance, but it was Stargate for chrissakes! I was ready, chomping at the bit. I watched the premiere live, and within the first 20 minutes I was sitting with my cheek resting on my palm propped up. By the time the second half rolled around, I was getting sleepy, and I was angry. They never fixed it...it just got worse and worse, and sillier and more retarded as time went on. Now, its fully bonkers and this season for me is going to be a comedy of ratings, events and hopefully ends in cancellation of Stargate Universe.
I think fans should be looking for a way to write out Stargate Universe from the canon in a believable way, leaving the actual Stargate universe intact and unaffected. I just dont see a connection between the SGU universe and the Stargate universe. Perhaps put them in a different dimension or timeline? Perhaps dialing that 9th chevron put them in an alternate reality or something. Just....make them gone!
1.) The plot heavy, character light way
2.) The Balanced way
3.) The character heavy, plot driven way.
The first would describe anotehr continuation, Return of the Ancients which discounts SGU in its entirety. I'd get into it but evidently i'm a 'hater' of it since it basically mates Stargate and Star Wars to the point where it's fantasy being explained with psuedoscience as well as actually insulting science of today. Not to mention warping the characters to suit the story. (and one hell of a Mary Sue)
the second would be something like PJ's The Captives. A nice mix of both characters and plot, with lots of detail. Dark Frontier is something like this as well but more character oriented. Fait Accompli would be like this as well with a balance between characters and plot.
The third would be something like SBZ's "The Way" series which is VERY character focused, but has a killer story and remains one of my favorites. I love the dark character stories but mostly when the plot is the reason the characters are the way they are, not the other way around :p
The problem as i see it is that SG has written itself into a corner. Either we lose Earth, or we're ultra powerful. OR we meet ANOTHER ultrapowerful race that makes the Ancients look like toys
OR we're stranded 600 million light years away
What a thoughtful and searching post!
EXCELLENT analysis! Bolded in red is the meat of the whole issue about the canon. It is very easy when they maintain awareness of the canon THEY CREATED. The fans know the canon as the writers have written it, but there are limits as to what is acceptable as change without explanation. In SG-1, it was established that a stable wormhole could be maintained by a stargate for no more than 30 minutes. That was maintained all the way to the end, and when they needed the wormhole to stay open longer, there was an explanation of how it was done. But in season 1 of Atlantis, the Wraith were much much stronger, harder to kill and had telepathic powers. By season 2, they could be killed rather easily and there were no signs of telepathic powers or the ability to create false images in the mind. But the change was not explained. It was acceptable because the storylines were more engaging. I think Atlantis integrated the added treknology of SG-1 better overall. Atlantis started out with shields, a cloak, ships with cloaks, advanced weapons and data, and a workable Pegasus gate addressbook. There was a PLAUSIBLE connection with earth through the gate or via earth Starships when needed.
Any avid fan could have advised them how to connect the two universes and tell them what they should have changed and what they should have kept. But, shoulda, woulda. Its a wash already. Self Destruct engaged, season 2 silent countdown.
At present you are absolutely correct -- there is no connection. THAT is part of the fundamental problem of SGU, and no matter who or how many guest stars they bring in, they will never reconcile that basic discrepancy.
How to solve that problem? Simple to say -- MAKE A SOLUTION -- but, maybe not so easy to do from a logical, progressive story pov. A different dimension or timeline? Again, just mho, but far too cheesy, and a cop-out. What to do not to fall into that pit of overworked excuses of tale telling? As a writer, sit back, make a t-account -- put all prejudices and feelings aside and write the pros on one side and the cons on the opposing side. And, when I say 'pros' and 'cons,' I mean the plot/construction/current execution. Be analytical, be logical. And, above all else, be true to cannon as you (we, the fans) know it. And, if there isn't 'cannon' that covers your storyline, be intrepid in creating it. As long as it follows the logic of existing cannon, or it fills in the backstory of existing cannon, you shouldn't run afoul of the overall concept.
Always ask, "What will the logical extrapolation be that will be accepted? Is a character of reasonable intelligence, going up to a hole in a spaceship and saying, 'Daddy, is that you??' going to be acceptable?" Granted, that's rather an extreme example, but we SAW that. Don't diminish this character's worth and fall into a similar illogical pit. You're ultimately responsible for this character -- giving her/him ignorant things to say and do says little for your ability to create her/his world of perspective.
This all may seem a daunting responsibility, and it may seem difficult, but if you follow this, you will be less likely to write yourself and the characters whom you have forged into a corner, and you will never have to explain the story. Ardent fans are much smarter than anyone ever gives them credit for, and they will always be two steps ahead of you in both character development and the storyline. But, as a writer, you have the supreme will to exercise plot twists -- the deus ex machina -- that all story tellers love to pitch in to keep the reader/viewer on their toes! LOL)
Okay, I said to myself that I wasn't going to deliver a sermon on this stuff, but here it is.. Now go forth and multiply -- er... or, something like that.
EXCELLENT analysis! Bolded in red is the meat of the whole issue about the canon. It is very easy when they maintain awareness of the canon THEY CREATED. The fans know the canon as the writers have written it, but there are limits as to what is acceptable as change without explanation. In SG-1, it was established that a stable wormhole could be maintained by a stargate for no more than 30 minutes. That was maintained all the way to the end, and when they needed the wormhole to stay open longer, there was an explanation of how it was done. But in season 1 of Atlantis, the Wraith were much much stronger, harder to kill and had telepathic powers. By season 2, they could be killed rather easily and there were no signs of telepathic powers or the ability to create false images in the mind. But the change was not explained. It was acceptable because the storylines were more engaging. I think Atlantis integrated the added treknology of SG-1 better overall. Atlantis started out with shields, a cloak, ships with cloaks, advanced weapons and data, and a workable Pegasus gate addressbook. There was a PLAUSIBLE connection with earth through the gate or via earth Starships when needed.
Any avid fan could have advised them how to connect the two universes and tell them what they should have changed and what they should have kept. But, shoulda, woulda. Its a wash already. Self Destruct engaged, season 2 silent countdown.
ChromeToasterX
GateFans Noob
I know what they could do! They could have the SGC use their brains for once and once the solar flare + gate time travel technique to not only erase SGU from canon, but to get rid off the clusterfuck that was Enemy at the Gate by sending a Puddle Jumper through with the ZPMs from Atlantis, the Odyssey, and the Antarctic Outpost, along with a computer filled with documents detailing the events that went down. Considering that Baal did the same thing and would've won had Quetesh not decided to be greedy, that's the best way to get rid of SGU. Hell, it would be a great plot for that SGU movie that TPTB want to shove down our throats! The SGU cast doesn't really show up, except for Rush, who stops the rest of the crew from trying to convince the SGC not do the plan, the SGC does it and the Atlantis team shows up at the end, blowing up the Super-hive as its being built and going through a space gate back to Atlantis.I think fans should be looking for a way to write out Stargate Universe from the canon in a believable way, leaving the actual Stargate universe intact and unaffected. I just dont see a connection between the SGU universe and the Stargate universe. Perhaps put them in a different dimension or timeline? Perhaps dialing that 9th chevron put them in an alternate reality or something. Just....make them gone!
Mr. A
Super Moderator +
I was thinking about ST:Ent...
Spoiler warning: don't read this if you haven't watched the finale of ST:Ent
I think the writers of ST:Ent (B. Braga & R. Berman) were faced by similar dilemmas. They had ruined the franchise and the canon of Star Trek with the first 3 seasons of the show (Another Enterprise, irrational Vulcans, Ferengi, technology too early, no Romulan War, no Eugenics reference, etc). Of course, they ignored Manny Coto's very effective cleaning up of the mess and restoration of what is known to be 'classic ST' during season 4 - but that's another point. In reality the series was already gone when season 3 ended.
They could have resorted to the "it was all a holodeck creation" cop out, but on the other hand they didn't want to completely do away with their creation... So These Are the Voyages was an attempt to somehow set ST:Ent apart from the rest of the Trek universe with the added 'bonus' of subtly reminding the viewers that it was the same Berman who had been responsible for the 'glory days' of ST:TNG. The last episode ended with Riker and Troi looking at federation history with the aid of the holodeck. Neither sticking to the whole new premise of the show, nor completely dismissing it - a compromise if you will.
The finale ended up doing neither. It was a mess that pleased nobody.
I see the creators of SGU in the same predicament. There's no way to fix the show - like Overmind1 wrote, those bridges have been burnt already. All they can hope for is SyFy to put it out of its misery as soon as possible, so BW and JM can claim they couldn't accomplish what they set out to do and it's all the fans' fault who wouldn't give the show its needed time.
Spoiler warning: don't read this if you haven't watched the finale of ST:Ent
I think the writers of ST:Ent (B. Braga & R. Berman) were faced by similar dilemmas. They had ruined the franchise and the canon of Star Trek with the first 3 seasons of the show (Another Enterprise, irrational Vulcans, Ferengi, technology too early, no Romulan War, no Eugenics reference, etc). Of course, they ignored Manny Coto's very effective cleaning up of the mess and restoration of what is known to be 'classic ST' during season 4 - but that's another point. In reality the series was already gone when season 3 ended.
They could have resorted to the "it was all a holodeck creation" cop out, but on the other hand they didn't want to completely do away with their creation... So These Are the Voyages was an attempt to somehow set ST:Ent apart from the rest of the Trek universe with the added 'bonus' of subtly reminding the viewers that it was the same Berman who had been responsible for the 'glory days' of ST:TNG. The last episode ended with Riker and Troi looking at federation history with the aid of the holodeck. Neither sticking to the whole new premise of the show, nor completely dismissing it - a compromise if you will.
The finale ended up doing neither. It was a mess that pleased nobody.
I see the creators of SGU in the same predicament. There's no way to fix the show - like Overmind1 wrote, those bridges have been burnt already. All they can hope for is SyFy to put it out of its misery as soon as possible, so BW and JM can claim they couldn't accomplish what they set out to do and it's all the fans' fault who wouldn't give the show its needed time.
Rac80
The Belle of the Ball
Rac80
The Belle of the Ball
On point Sabella.
Exactly and charge you for the tenderloin!... Although I prefer to think of the stuff as naturally processed alfalfa (AKA horse manure)-- you know looks like, smells like, it is....
JohnSN7
GateFans Noob
Screw the alternate universe explanation!
You know what? I say we do what George Lucas did with the Star Wars Holiday Special and simply pretend it does not exist and/or refuse to acknowledge its existance. Heck, George Lucas has pretty much bought (and probably destroyed) every copy of the Star Wars Holiday Special. While we may not have those kinds of resources, we can just simply say SGU is not canon and forget about it. The only time it would be acceptable to talk about SGU is when we reminisce about the good times we had when us valiant fans stood up to TPTB and their shitty SGU to save the franchise. Yup. We can talk about SGU in "victory parades." Otherwise, we should just wipe it from canon completely.
You know what? I say we do what George Lucas did with the Star Wars Holiday Special and simply pretend it does not exist and/or refuse to acknowledge its existance. Heck, George Lucas has pretty much bought (and probably destroyed) every copy of the Star Wars Holiday Special. While we may not have those kinds of resources, we can just simply say SGU is not canon and forget about it. The only time it would be acceptable to talk about SGU is when we reminisce about the good times we had when us valiant fans stood up to TPTB and their shitty SGU to save the franchise. Yup. We can talk about SGU in "victory parades." Otherwise, we should just wipe it from canon completely.
Rac80
The Belle of the Ball
great Idea
A side benefit is our unwillingness to acknowledge sgpoo will try the fan boyz nuts!
A side benefit is our unwillingness to acknowledge sgpoo will try the fan boyz nuts!
Bluce Ree
Tech Admin / Council Member
I agree with all of you. Its like a scar we need to make less noticable, even though its permanent.
Stargate Universe is a scar on the body of the Stargate franchise. I have no doubt whatsoever that this is SGU's final season, and that its cancellation will not be the end of the furor. If SGU is cancelled abruptly mid-season, that will only be the beginning for Gateworld and all the places where the shills and squeedrones have made nests. For me, the only way I would go back to participating at Gateworld is if they close the SGU forums to comments and lift the iron curtain. But that is not going to happen. Whats going to happen is that any financial ties to TPTB will be severed to Gateworld, as will the e-checks paying for shills and marketing
. Gateworld can survive if they pare back staff and shrink their overhead back to levels where Darrin and David can manage the site out of their own pockets. Seems to me they have "grown into" that extra money that was coming in. 
And what about licensing issues when and if the Stargate franchise changes hands? Perhaps TPTB of the new owners might not grant such exclusivity to Gateworld, and they most certainly wont enter into any sort of financial relationship with them considering what they have become. They might even create their own site.
A side benefit is our unwillingness to acknowledge sgpoo will try the fan boyz nuts!
Stargate Universe is a scar on the body of the Stargate franchise. I have no doubt whatsoever that this is SGU's final season, and that its cancellation will not be the end of the furor. If SGU is cancelled abruptly mid-season, that will only be the beginning for Gateworld and all the places where the shills and squeedrones have made nests. For me, the only way I would go back to participating at Gateworld is if they close the SGU forums to comments and lift the iron curtain. But that is not going to happen. Whats going to happen is that any financial ties to TPTB will be severed to Gateworld, as will the e-checks paying for shills and marketing
. Gateworld can survive if they pare back staff and shrink their overhead back to levels where Darrin and David can manage the site out of their own pockets. Seems to me they have "grown into" that extra money that was coming in. And what about licensing issues when and if the Stargate franchise changes hands? Perhaps TPTB of the new owners might not grant such exclusivity to Gateworld, and they most certainly wont enter into any sort of financial relationship with them considering what they have become. They might even create their own site.
Aragon101
Illusive Deity of Fanfic
I concur. Reboot with superior writers!
Yep, I have said this all along....
Like I have said many times, the Stargate concept is evergreen, like Star Trek. Years, even decades could go by and it could be rebooted SEVERAL times. Star Trek is on its third (successful) reboot. The whole lot needs to be hosed down and cleaned out completely. Get rid of ALL of these writers and keep them from influencing future Stargate enterprises. Get it off Syfy if possible, and lets have a proper reboot of the movie. perhaps a sequel? Something needs to bring the focus back into the game.
Like I have said many times, the Stargate concept is evergreen, like Star Trek. Years, even decades could go by and it could be rebooted SEVERAL times. Star Trek is on its third (successful) reboot. The whole lot needs to be hosed down and cleaned out completely. Get rid of ALL of these writers and keep them from influencing future Stargate enterprises. Get it off Syfy if possible, and lets have a proper reboot of the movie. perhaps a sequel? Something needs to bring the focus back into the game.