Review S2E17 - Common Descent

[Gatefan1976]

The mistreatment of women occurred in polytheistic religions/cultures as much as monotheistic. Ancient Rome and ancient Greece weren't exactly egalitarian civilizations gender wise.

You might just be suprised Brother 'Ape

 

[Stonelesscutter]

I don't see why people would have to regress their social behaviour if they were in a situation like this.

 

[shavedape]

I don't see why people would have to regress their social behaviour if they were in a situation like this.

You know, people might take you more seriously if you put your pants back on.

 

[Stonelesscutter]

You know, people might take you more seriously if you put your pants back on.

Heck no.
I'm in bed.
And I sleep naked.

 

[Graybrew1]

I'm not offended at all, I find the entire notion of "segregation" of the sexes in all forms pretty disgraceful. All I'm saying is that humanity only "jumped on" the whole "men are better than women" kick fairly recently (relatively speaking). If the impetus to create the segregation is gone, there is no need to think that such a system would exist in that world. In fact, considering the power that the females would initially wield in a rebuilt society based on such a (relatively) small genetic sample, it would suprise me more that the society isn't far more matriachal by nature.

In my country we have been oppressed for many decades, not just recently. Women were always expected to stay home and raise kids and clean house, while the menfolk went out and killed the wild boar, rustled the cattle, and eventually brought home the bacon. Even after we were able to vote we were still very underpaid in the workforce and lacked any type of respect from the general consensus of men. To this day, In America women are still paid less for doing the same job as a man. We have always been considered the weaker sex.

I bring these points up , merely as a point of argument and not to say whether or not they were wrong or right. But if the overall population of a whole planet was knocked back in intellectual growth, it would make sense to me, that they would regress in social behaviors too. The only one of those socials behaviors that I pointed out ( out of many) was women.

 

[Graybrew1]

I don't see why people would have to regress their social behaviour if they were in a situation like this.

Same reason , they are supposed to regress in intellectual knowledge. Lack of Education.

 

[Gatefan1976]

I suspect we're about to parse the definition of "equality" here aren't we, sigh...

Women have been subjugated to a patriarchal society forever. There may have been brief, nano-second moments where women could inherit property and/or own property, but those were exceptions, not the norm.

The reason female leaders (Boadicia, Elizabeth I, etc.) are so well known is that they were the exception, hence the reason for their standing out in history. If they were the norm as you claim -- being treated as equals for thousands of years -- then you'd be able to provide endless examples of women rulers and legislators (where are the female Roman senators pray tell???) and warriors.

I'm not saying women can't be all these things, I'm saying history has prevented that on any scale approaching equality.

Oh, lets agree to disagree then dude, I honestly couldn't be arsed arguing the point. Bear in mind however, most surviving history was written by men living in a heavily Patriachal system that wanted to relegate females to nothing more than breeding machines, and the easiest way to do that is to write them out of history.

 

[Graybrew1]

Heck no.
I'm in bed.
And I sleep naked.

:smiley-lala:

 

[Stonelesscutter]

I suspect we're about to parse the definition of "equality" here aren't we, sigh...

Women have been subjugated to a patriarchal society forever. There may have been brief, nano-second moments where women could inherit property and/or own property, but those were exceptions, not the norm.

The reason female leaders (Boadicia, Elizabeth I, etc.) are so well known is that they were the exception, hence the reason for their standing out in history. If they were the norm as you claim -- being treated as equals for thousands of years -- then you'd be able to provide endless examples of women rulers and legislators (where are the female Roman senators pray tell???) and warriors.

I'm not saying women can't be all these things, I'm saying history has prevented that on any scale approaching equality.

I'm sure cultures throughout history have tried to form governments where women were equally represented but they probably reached the conclusion that it just doesn't work out well and it's not worth the hassle.

 

[Graybrew1]

Oh, lets agree to disagree then dude, I honestly couldn't be arsed arguing the point. Bear in mind however, most surviving history was written by men living in a heavily Patriachal system that wanted to relegate females to nothing more than breeding machines, and the easiest way to do that is to write them out of history.

My veiwpoints are substantiated by American Past laws and current statistics.
Again , not trying to argue the merit of the oppression. Just trying to make the point of argument for what can happen if your society regresses intellectually.

 

[Stonelesscutter]

Same reason , they are supposed to regress in intellectual knowledge. Lack of Education.

Are you talking about the big colony with the modern buildings or the small colony with the tents here?

 

[Graybrew1]

I'm sure cultures throughout history have tried to form governments where women were equally represented but they probably reached the conclusion that it just doesn't work out well and it's not worth the hassle.

Boo Hiss. Mean Mean Man.

 

[Gatefan1976]

In my country we have been oppressed for many decades, not just recently. Women were always expected to stay home and raise kids and clean house, while the menfolk went out and killed the wild boar, rustled the cattle, and eventually brought home the bacon. Even after we were able to vote we were still very underpaid in the workforce and lacked any type of respect from the general consensus of men. To this day, In America women are still paid less for doing the same job as a man. We have always been considered the weaker sex.

I bring these points up , merely as a point of argument and not to say whether or not they were wrong or right. But if the overall population of a whole planet was knocked back in intellectual growth, it would make sense to me, that they would regress in social behaviors too. The only one of those socials behaviors that I pointed out ( out of many) was women.

Sure, women were repressed for centuries, everywhere, they still are. I'm just saying that one of the main causes for the repression of women is rooted in monotheism, and, as far as I can tell, most of the *strongly* religious folk left the Destiny on the "faith planet".

 

[Graybrew1]

Are you talking about the big colony with the modern buildings or the small colony with the tents here?

Sorry, I was referring to the argument that has been made as to why the Big planet never had acheived Space travel in 2000 years. The point was made that they must have had some sort of major type of Dark Age regression caused by Natural Disaters, War ... ect... To the point where they had to start over and thus why they did not have Space ship capability. So, My point was if the people on the planet left during this time, and that is why they are still living in huts for the last 30 years, then they should have also had a major social regression.

 

[Gatefan1976]

My veiwpoints are substantiated by American Past laws and current statistics.
Again , not trying to argue the merit of the oppression. Just trying to make the point of argument for what can happen if your society regresses intellectually.

But I'm not talking about modern history here GB, I'm talking about thousands of years ago.

 

[Graybrew1]

Sure, women were repressed for centuries, everywhere, they still are. I'm just saying that one of the main causes for the repression of women is rooted in monotheism, and, as far as I can tell, most of the *strongly* religious folk left the Destiny on the "faith planet".

I see your point. But the people that this would happen too , would be their descendants. After this "major event that caused this scientific and intellectual massive regression."

 

[Gatefan1976]

I see your point. But the people that this would happen too , would be their descendants. After this "major event that caused this scientific and intellectual massive regression."

Why? What would be the causative event for a society to regress in such a way, why not a matriachal system instead?

 

[Graybrew1]

Why? What would be the causative event for a society to regress in such a way, why not a matriachal system instead?

If we reverted back to our origins for our intellect then why would we not revert back to our origins for social behaviors?

 

[shavedape]

Oh, lets agree to disagree then dude, I honestly couldn't be arsed arguing the point. Bear in mind however, most surviving history was written by men living in a heavily Patriachal system that wanted to relegate females to nothing more than breeding machines, and the easiest way to do that is to write them out of history.

It's even easier to subjugate them at the "point of sale", i.e. in everyday life; the "right here, right now" mentality. The accomplishments of women weren't written out of history, they were prevented from ever happening to begin with. The fact that a few hundred Spartan women might have had the ability to "vote" in village elections is hardly representative of women in toto the world over during that millennium (or any millennium for that matter).

As for being "breeding machines", yes, that was a tool to keep them subjugated. Women have always had methods of birth control since the dawn of civilization but it isn't until very recently (20th Century) that women had access to easy, cheap, convenient birth control. (I'm not talking about abortion, I'm talking about 'The Pill' here.) Most importantly reproductive information readily available to women is a very recent phenom.

Plus we have to weigh affluence and standards of living and all that stuff (the middle-class and even poor women in Western society today live light years ahead of their female ancestors in terms of health care and rights). I'm trying not to look at this only thru a 21st Century lens. Life has been brutal for everyone for millennium, not just for women. Hence my point that recent (the past 50 to 100 years) is really the period that women were finally able to throw off the shackles of patriarchal oppression. (My lesbian friend Gloria would be so happy with me right now -- she loves that term -- 'Patriarchal oppression'. I think it would make a good name for a punk band, don't you?)

 

[Stonelesscutter]

Sorry, I was referring to the argument that has been made as to why the Big planet never had acheived Space travel in 2000 years. The point was made that they must have had some sort of major type of Dark Age regression caused by Natural Disaters, War ... ect... To the point where they had to start over and thus why they did not have Space ship capability. So, My point was if the people on the planet left during this time, and that is why they are still living in huts for the last 30 years, then they should have also had a major social regression.

I see. So what if they just didn't care about spaceships.
They had the stargate which is much more convenient.
Or perhaps they couldn't find certain raw materials they needed.
Or maybe they were working on spaceships but didn't get to finish them.