Earth In a 1000 Years

[Overmind One]

Ok ok ,,, I watched the educational vid from George Carlin . Very thruthful and to the point . So I am wrong on a bunch of stuff . I am man enough to admit it . But it still gives humans no right to polute the way we do . It gives humans no right to add shit all over the place . What's wrong with wanting clean air . What's wrong with walking in the woods that have not been deforested . What's wrong with wanting to see a whale . What's wrong with wanting to drink water out of my tap and not a plastic bottle . Yes I am wrong on saying the world is toast . Humans are and will be toast but while I am here and my children grow up I'd like to look out the window and say ahh ,,, look at that . Clean air today so I won't need my inhaler .

I feel you bro! I want the same things. But I need for these things to be done for the right reasons. Many people just feel that as long as something is done, the motivations dont count, but they really kinda do for me. My neighbor bought a Prius. But she did it because it fits in her single car garage, gets better gas mileage than her minivan did, and she liked the color. But I have a client who has the exact same Prius, but he bought it because he thinks he is "saving the planet". He is a vegan, consumes a lot of soy products and believes very strongly in global warming. But guess what? His office has 12 printers (one for each employee), each using a large print cartridge. that fancy hepa filtering system he had installed sucks up more energy than an air conditioner, and his wife drives a gas guzzling Cadillac Escalade. Clean up the air and technology, but not because of manmade global warming. It just does not exist.

And you are right . We have the technology to clean stuff up but it is not applied as too many people are getting filthy rich off of our need for stuff and more stuff . Hey . I'm guilty of polluting the air with my 2 stroke motorcycle which I ride rarely but still enjoy the small time I ride it .

Enjoy your ride! You aren't polluting MY air. You should not be worrying about your bike. At the same moment you are riding your bike with the wind at your face and that sound of the engine is in your ears, some cattle farmer in India is watching over a herd which is throwing more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere in a day than you are doing in a year. And you cant do anything about it. Too many people spend time worrying about so many things.

Do I believe in global warning ? If you add pollution and not climate change to the equation. Then I am onboard .
Thanks for all the input guys . Enjoying the banter tremendously .

I agree with you on the pollution aspect, but it is more on the level of the way I feel when people do not keep a clean home or when I go into a public restroom in a restaurant and find it cruddy and unkempt. It has nothing to do with some global effort to "save the planet". Clean it up because it is nicer that way.

 

[Bluce Ree]

Ok ok ,,, I watched the educational vid from George Carlin . Very thruthful and to the point . So I am wrong on a bunch of stuff . I am man enough to admit it . But it still gives humans no right to polute the way we do . It gives humans no right to add shit all over the place . What's wrong with wanting clean air . What's wrong with walking in the woods that have not been deforested . What's wrong with wanting to see a whale . What's wrong with wanting to drink water out of my tap and not a plastic bottle . Yes I am wrong on saying the world is toast . Humans are and will be toast but while I am here and my children grow up I'd like to look out the window and say ahh ,,, look at that . Clean air today so I won't need my inhaler .
And you are right . We have the technology to clean stuff up but it is not applied as too many people are getting filthy rich off of our need for stuff and more stuff . Hey . I'm guilty of polluting the air with my 2 stroke motorcycle which I ride rarely but still enjoy the small time I ride it .
Do I believe in global warning ? If you add pollution and not climate change to the equation. Then I am onboard .
Thanks for all the input guys . Enjoying the banter tremendously .

I don't think any of us disagree on those principles. I'm a very loud supporter of clean energy.


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[YJ02]

I feel you bro! I want the same things. But I need for these things to be done for the right reasons. Many people just feel that as long as something is done, the motivations dont count, but they really kinda do for me. My neighbor bought a Prius. But she did it because it fits in her single car garage, gets better gas mileage than her minivan did, and she liked the color. But I have a client who has the exact same Prius, but he bought it because he thinks he is "saving the planet". He is a vegan, consumes a lot of soy products and believes very strongly in global warming. But guess what? His office has 12 printers (one for each employee), each using a large print cartridge. that fancy hepa filtering system he had installed sucks up more energy than an air conditioner, and his wife drives a gas guzzling Cadillac Escalade. Clean up the air and technology, but not because of manmade global warming. It just does not exist.



Enjoy your ride! You aren't polluting MY air. You should not be worrying about your bike. At the same moment you are riding your bike with the wind at your face and that sound of the engine is in your ears, some cattle farmer in India is watching over a herd which is throwing more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere in a day than you are doing in a year. And you cant do anything about it. Too many people spend time worrying about so many things.



I agree with you on the pollution aspect, but it is more on the level of the way I feel when people do not keep a clean home or when I go into a public restroom in a restaurant and find it cruddy and unkempt. It has nothing to do with some global effort to "save the planet". Clean it up because it is nicer that way.

People should be cleaner and be responsible with their waste and consumption because they want to be

you can not force people to be more attentive to these subjects through legislation--usually when tougher laws on the control of waste come out it causes unintended consequences that just make ppl more inventive on how they dump stuff

ex: here, ppl have to pay extra to throw away a tv, pc/laptop or any appliance--so what happens instead of ppl paying the fee? More electronics and appliances illegally dumped over embankments or ppl just letting the stuff pile up in their garages.

The deposits on bottles and cans in places like NY state has done very little to curb pollution; there are still as many bottles and cans on the roadside in ny state as there are down here in PA

And as to the rest of the world--well that goes hand in hand with what I have said about the rest of the world and how they are irresponsible for their defense or in the event of natural disaster. They handle their trash in much the same way. Walk down any street in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, India and some African countries and you will see ppl openly dumping their trash any where they choose.

In Saudi, walk and drop their soda cans or water bottles and burger wrappers right where they walk-they don't care, but one of the thousands of little Bangladeshi's they import will come along and clean it up for them

But it is all natural all the same. Like OM was saying, the Dino's shaped the world they were in as well; flattened forests, over grazed the forests, and over grazed the grasslands as well as drove other species to near extinction by feeding on them

Their biggest pollutant? Themselves- the waste of their bodies has been fueling our culture for over 100yrs now.

The waste cycle of all Earth's inhabitants is a combination of parasitical--bugs and organisms munching on our landfills and co-dependent--other organisms feeding or thriving on the left overs of other organisms, like us with fossil fuels

Ppl need to do the environmentally responsibly thing because they want to, not because of some "Daddy save the Polar bears" guilt trip brought home from school from some liberal 3rd grade teacher--who either don't know or do not teach the kids that Polar Bears are in existence BECAUSE of past climate change.

I use cfl's and starting on LED's because I hate to change light bulbs--the CFLs last much longer than incandescent and the LED bulb I bought last week will probably outlive me.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Being responsible is the very crux of the matter. The problem with "climate change" as a subject is that it has been just as polluted with garbage as everything else. People simply cannot stick to the known FACTS, everything gets extrapolated to the worst case scenario for both the positive and negative.
The facts are, as a few here have said is that there is net to nothing we can do that would endanger the Earth as a planet. What we can do is alter it enough to wipe US out. Now, call me selfish, but I don't really want us wiped out as a species, I LIKE our species on the whole, despite our many failings. We can point to cow farts, but they are only so many cows *because* of us, or we can point to the "third world" and turn a blind eye to the fact that not 200 years ago we were doing the same thing as them, dumping our shit wherever.
The problem here, as always, is money.

 

[mzzz]

I don't recall any other species or life in Earth's history ever transforming the Earth like we have. Hardly natural. Hardly a justifiable comparison.

 

[Overmind One]

I don't recall any other species or life in Earth's history ever transforming the Earth like we have. Hardly natural. Hardly a justifiable comparison.

Youre kidding, right? Man is not special. His structures, his inventions and flying machines and rockets and technology are merely putting together materials which were already here. The first nuclear fission reaction was a natural one. Electricity was not invented by Man. Oil burning is something that was going on even in the Plestiocene, with entire pools of it on the surface. The dinosaurs shaped the earth and it's species in a way Man will never be able to do unless he can survive a couple of million years. They de-forested land and created greenhouse gases. They shaped the evolution of entire species of plants and other creatures. They influenced migrations and controlled the populations of prey animals, the list goes on.

Even today, Man is not the mover and shaker of the earth. Forests are at the top of the food chain. Plants are, by far, the most evolved lifeforms on this planet. Destroy forests, and the climate changes. Burn them, and the climate changes. Kill them off, and all life dies. "Natural" is relative. Man's natural abilities allow him to build things, and those things are no more relevant to earth than termite mounds.

Speaking of termite mounds....termites and ants have moved more earth than Man in his entire existence.

 

[mzzz]

Man has laid down concrete changing the albedo of the habitat. Chemicals and chemical spilloff have changed the state of the environment through the soil, the water, ground water, etc. Metropolitan centers create this 'urban heat islands' changing the local weather. Gas emissions, pollution of all forms, deforestation, excavation and mining operations, etc. have all transformed the land. All of this is on a much larger scale than what dinosaurs and other species have done on Earth. The existence of some natural phenomena (such as electricity) is not an argument for deeming our mass use of it (and all the other things that come with it like fossil fuels and whatnot) as some natural phenomena as well. And I've seen you post in some other threads about how man shouldn't manipulate their biology and it should be natural. So it's ok to do what we do to nature and our environments but not to ourselves? No, our transformation of Earth in no way compares to termite mounds or anything other species have done. And where are you getting that little tidbit, termites and ants have moved more Earth than man?

 

[Overmind One]

Man has laid down concrete changing the albedo of the habitat. Chemicals and chemical spilloff have changed the state of the environment through the soil, the water, ground water, etc. Metropolitan centers create this 'urban heat islands' changing the local weather. Gas emissions, pollution of all forms, deforestation, excavation and mining operations, etc. have all transformed the land. All of this is on a much larger scale than what dinosaurs and other species have done on Earth.

Um, no. The dinosaurs were around MILLIONS of years. They changed the environment in ways that still persist today. Chemical spilloff still consists of elements which were already on earth. You are subscribing to the idea that Man is special in his being, in his history and works...that he alone amongst earth's creatures has the capability to change the environment. It isnt even close to the scale of change affected by the dinosaurs.

The existence of some natural phenomena (such as electricity) is not an argument for deeming our mass use of it (and all the other things that come with it like fossil fuels and whatnot) as some natural phenomena as well. And I've seen you post in some other threads about how man shouldn't manipulate their biology and it should be natural. So it's ok to do what we do to nature and our environments but not to ourselves? No, our transformation of Earth in no way compares to termite mounds or anything other species have done. And where are you getting that little tidbit, termites and ants have moved more Earth than man?

Termites have been around for 150 million years. They build mounds in the millions globally, and many ancient ones are still intact today. If you simply moved a spoonful of earth each day for 150 million years, you will have moved more earth than Man has in the past 10000 years. Termites moved much much more than that. When you claim that Man's "transformation of the earth" in no way compares, you are correct. We are nowhere near the level of the amount of change that species such as bacteria, plants, termites, bees, flies, cockroaches, earthworms, fish and others do. Our "transformations" are very very temporary...fading away without a trace in a mere couple of thousand years or so. We just arent all that. We are animals on this planet like all the other animals, not any more or less special than any of them. The notion that Man is special is a narcissistic, self-serving one. He is a peer with the animals around him, not "above" them. The specialness of Man within science is a carryover of Church influence in scientific circles. It comes from the days when scientists believed that the Sun and the heavens all circled the earth, the center of Heaven and the place of the Children of God . This is an incredibly egotistic view of our species, and it stands in the way of understanding our relationship with nature and the environment.

 

[Gatefan1976]

*puts on horns*

But if the universe is god, and we are made of star stuff, are we not truly the children of god?

 

[Overmind One]

*puts on horns*

But if the universe is god, and we are made of star stuff, are we not truly the children of god?

Yes. But that would require that the person saying it sees the Universe as "God" (as I do). Still, the use of the word "children" implies something other than desirable. The word "creatures" best describes living beings of every type anywhere they are found. Creatures (in the classic sense, pronounced Cree-ay-chures).

My point in this is that Man is no more special a creature than a paramecium. But many in science think he is special and somehow "better" than all other creatures. This is a remnant of the egocentric thinking if science when Man got hung up on himself and thought he was the center of the Universe. Until we start respecting all forms of life as special and unique, and stop thinking we are gods, science can move forward without pretension.

 

[Overmind One]

People should be cleaner and be responsible with their waste and consumption because they want to be

you can not force people to be more attentive to these subjects through legislation--usually when tougher laws on the control of waste come out it causes unintended consequences that just make ppl more inventive on how they dump stuff

ex: here, ppl have to pay extra to throw away a tv, pc/laptop or any appliance--so what happens instead of ppl paying the fee? More electronics and appliances illegally dumped over embankments or ppl just letting the stuff pile up in their garages.

We have that problem too. But in California the fee is collected when you purchase the item so if you dump it, they still got paid. I myself have a large 25" CRT-tube TV which was in my garage when I moved in (it isnt mine). I suspect it was left there because of the fee charged when they are dumped. Fortunately, Athena waste will pick it up free if I simply tell them it will be there Thursday for pickup. It has been there over a year! But yeah, entire companies which had 50 monitors or more might have them dumped in a field to avoid the fee. New purchases are not going to be dumped, so this is topsy turvy.

The deposits on bottles and cans in places like NY state has done very little to curb pollution; there are still as many bottles and cans on the roadside in ny state as there are down here in PA

And as to the rest of the world--well that goes hand in hand with what I have said about the rest of the world and how they are irresponsible for their defense or in the event of natural disaster. They handle their trash in much the same way. Walk down any street in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, India and some African countries and you will see ppl openly dumping their trash any where they choose.

In Saudi, walk and drop their soda cans or water bottles and burger wrappers right where they walk-they don't care, but one of the thousands of little Bangladeshi's they import will come along and clean it up for them

But it is all natural all the same. Like OM was saying, the Dino's shaped the world they were in as well; flattened forests, over grazed the forests, and over grazed the grasslands as well as drove other species to near extinction by feeding on them

They extincted a few species on their own as well. They created, by natural selection, new behaviors and new species which could survive dinosaur attacks and strategies. They limited dominance of mammals by being more powerful (and probably more intelligent) than prehistoric proto-primates.

Their biggest pollutant? Themselves- the waste of their bodies has been fueling our culture for over 100yrs now.

Great point.

The waste cycle of all Earth's inhabitants is a combination of parasitical--bugs and organisms munching on our landfills and co-dependent--other organisms feeding or thriving on the left overs of other organisms, like us with fossil fuels

Ppl need to do the environmentally responsibly thing because they want to, not because of some "Daddy save the Polar bears" guilt trip brought home from school from some liberal 3rd grade teacher--who either don't know or do not teach the kids that Polar Bears are in existence BECAUSE of past climate change.

I use cfl's and starting on LED's because I hate to change light bulbs--the CFLs last much longer than incandescent and the LED bulb I bought last week will probably outlive me.

LOVE the polar bear example. So true and correct. I now have hard metrics on my savings over this time last year, and starting in December 2013, my electric bill is LESS THAN HALF what it was this same time last year because of CFL and LED lighting, timers and creative scheduling of cooking and cleaning (during off peak hours). I have LED lighting in every room, and with all of them burning at once, they are consuming less energy than ONE 250W light bulb. The CFLs are in my bathroom, overhead fan/lights and in my grow chamber. And that infrared heater is a fraction of the cost of heating now.

 

[Overmind One]

*puts on horns*

But if the universe is god, and we are made of star stuff, are we not truly the children of god?

YES, but only of the person saying it believes (as I do) that the Universe is "God". I dont like the use of the word "children" to describe us though. I prefer the term "creatures" (pronounced correctly as cree-ay-chures). In that sense, both Man and bacteria are creatures. Neither more or less special than the other.

 

[Gatefan1976]

you changed your post

 

[YJ02]

I don't recall any other species or life in Earth's history ever transforming the Earth like we have. Hardly natural. Hardly a justifiable comparison.

How about the predatory species that transformed us--from "ape" to man? Their predation on our "Lucy type" ancestors is a big reason why they adapted to be able to stand up (to see better, look out for approach of predators) and to run (for obvious reasons).

Other animals harmful to "us" also probably helped as well in "our" development of defensive tools like the stabbing spear and the use of rocks as missiles

 

[Overmind One]

you changed your post

The first one disappeared. You saw it? I tried to word it the same as before. How come I did not see it when I posted it? (I know, why am I asking you?).

 

[Gatefan1976]

If you post 2 posts too quick in the same thread, the new one replaces the old one.

You arrogant prick!!!

 

[Overmind One]

How about the predatory species that transformed us--from "ape" to man? Their predation on our "Lucy type" ancestors is a big reason why they adapted to be able to stand up (to see better, look out for approach of predators) and to run (for obvious reasons).

Other animals harmful to "us" also probably helped as well in "our" development of defensive tools like the stabbing spear and the use of rocks as missiles

^^^THIS.

Thing is, the dinosaurs had MILLIONS of years to affect change in other creatures and literally shaped their evolution.

 

[Gatefan1976]

YES, but only of the person saying it believes (as I do) that the Universe is "God". I dont like the use of the word "children" to describe us though. I prefer the term "creatures" (pronounced correctly as cree-ay-chures). In that sense, both Man and bacteria are creatures. Neither more or less special than the other.

 

[Overmind One]

LOL! I wonder sometimes if creatures like pigeons or fish think they are the gods of the earth in their little worlds... What a haughty, stuck up creature Man is.

 

[Gatefan1976]

LOL! I wonder sometimes if creatures like pigeons or fish think they are the gods of the earth in their little worlds... What a haughty, stuck up creature Man is.