Dawn of the Planet of the Apes trailer

[Overmind One]

Actually it was in Escape - Cornelius relates the history of the Ape civilization and in his telling it is an Ape named Aldo who leads the rebellion. It was in the CIA interrogation (my bad when I said committee - it has been a bit since I watched Escape) and at approximately the 52 minute mark is where Caesar names Aldo as the ape that first said "No" and so forth.

In Battle Caesar views videos telling him how Earth was destroyed (per the video at about 28 minutes in by the Gorillas) and decides to chasing history.

Cornelius is talking about Aldo of the future from the Col Taylor timeline. The Aldo in Battle is a different Aldo (perhaps the first?) They are different apes in different timelines, even though the actor who played him is the same. Many of the actors went though the movies into the future, along with "Stevie" (the female doctor) and several of the minor characters, as different people. Stevie became one of the masked mutant humans in Beneath the Planet of the Apes, but was a different character in that timeline (she committed suicide with poison).

The scene you are referring to was when the professor was interviewing Zira and Cornelius about how the apes came to power. Cornelius says: "At first, they (the apes) merely grunted their refusals. But then came Aldo. He did not grunt. He said a word spoken to apes time and time again. He said 'NO'".

This conflicts with its own canon, since it was actually Lisa we see in Conquest who utters the word "No". None of the other apes in the Conquest timeline can speak except Caesar (and finally Lisa). Caesar is the one who started the uprising, not Aldo. The first Aldo we see in the earlier timeline is Aldo of Battle who is the first ape to kill ape. I am now watching Battle again, just to be sure. . Whatever the case, Caesar is not reacting to or trying to manipulate future events. Only this guy was:

 

[Overmind One]

Right. Aldo was not specifically the lawgiver. But he was the leader of the rebellion (as I just noted with time references) in the original timeline. Caesar assumed that role in the changed timeline and then Aldo was killed after murdering Caesar's son in Battle. We see the lawgiver at the very start and end of Battle and it is obvious that he is much changed as he is a disciple of Caesar instead of what he was in POTA.

True. Caesar was the catalyst for the uprising in the changed timeline. But the Aldo of the original timeline (which we never got to see), would have been a different gorilla mentality than the one which led to ape killing ape. The original Aldo would have been killing humans, not apes. Those lawgiver scenes (actually the entire movie which is done in third person in actuality) are taking place in the void between Battle and Planet of the Apes 1 when humans and apes are still living in peace and humans can still speak. That part of the first timeline of movies was never made. When did the humans become mute and feral? How did the castes develop within ape society? How did they form their world? All of that was ripe for storytelling.

Good point correcting on the lawgiver - I got that a bit off. But Cornelius did name Aldo in both films and Caesar saw it and does endeavor to change the future.

He wanted peace at the end of Battle. There needed to be a seventh movie in the series to tell what happened after, but continuity is still maintained without it.

About the new reboot:

They made it linear. I wonder why they did that? Perhaps they wanted to avoid using time travel schtick? The astronauts being lost in space on the way to Mars is going to be a key element later on in this series. They will undoubtedly return in the future, perhaps through an anomaly?

The original book is so different than any of the films to date. All of the films are better than the book except for the Tim Burton one. I dont like the story told in the book nearly as much as the movies.

 

[Overmind One]

Interesting marketing gimmick...20th Century has put up a fake website about Simian Flu here:

http://www.simianflu.com/us/#!/the-simian-flu-and-you

It looks to all the world like a real site, talking about a real disease, but is false. They have created a great interactive website here which tells you a lot of what will be seen in the next movie. "Bones" as it were. Check it out!

http://www.dawnofapes.com/?utm_camp...es+e&gclid=CNj35bKf-70CFY17fgodTh0A4Q#explore

Events in this movie take place 10 years after the last movie. Evidently, the apes and humans have separated with the apes forming their society in the redwood forests as the humans across the bridge in San Francisco are fighting to survive after the simian flu has decimated mankind. The humans evidently form an envious view of the apes who are flourishing in the forests. Im looking forward to this next installment!

 

[Tripler]

Not a big fan of monkeys . A friend of mine had one when I was a kid and the little basturd bit me !!!

 

[Joelist]

 

[Joelist]

Okay...back to things Simian.

The Aldo Cornelius mentions in Escape is the Aldo from Battle - he does not mention the name of the Gorilla commander in Beneath (actually it is General Ursus). I do think they could have made a film after Battle but they also designed Battle to end the series so maybe we should take it as such. Basically it would mean Caesar succeeded and the lawgiver in this timeline (being a disciple of Caesar and not of Aldo) continues in the work of forging and managing a peaceful Ape-Human society.

As to the mute humans, it was never explained properly even in the original POTA. Zira did note they had the proper physical tools for speech based on her dissections. Maybe it was being hunted by Apes and driven into the jungles that made them feral? Except that humans in similar living conditions both historically and today have had speech.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Okay...back to things Simian.

The Aldo Cornelius mentions in Escape is the Aldo from Battle - he does not mention the name of the Gorilla commander in Beneath (actually it is General Ursus). I do think they could have made a film after Battle but they also designed Battle to end the series so maybe we should take it as such. Basically it would mean Caesar succeeded and the lawgiver in this timeline (being a disciple of Caesar and not of Aldo) continues in the work of forging and managing a peaceful Ape-Human society.

As to the mute humans, it was never explained properly even in the original POTA. Zira did note they had the proper physical tools for speech based on her dissections. Maybe it was being hunted by Apes and driven into the jungles that made them feral? Except that humans in similar living conditions both historically and today have had speech.

 

[Bluce Ree]

In the original series. The last two films are Caesar changing history.

I remember that. In the final scenes of the last movie, we saw man and ape together as equals.

 

[Overmind One]

I remember that. In the final scenes of the last movie, we saw man and ape together as equals.

Yep, also at the beginning. The entire movie was third person, being told to the human/ape schoolchildren in a time between the end of Battle and PotA 1 when apes and humans were living in peace together.

 

[Joelist]

Hi GF!

Note in the case study you linked the feral child had been alone in the woods for most of his life. I would think it is the alone factor that accounted for the lack of speech, as humans do exist in the same type of surroundings in groups and have speech.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Hi GF!

Note in the case study you linked the feral child had been alone in the woods for most of his life. I would think it is the alone factor that accounted for the lack of speech, as humans do exist in the same type of surroundings in groups and have speech.

This may prove interesting to your discussion:
http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/23765-plot-problems-planet-of-the-apes-1968-a.html

 

[Overmind One]

Okay...back to things Simian.

The Aldo Cornelius mentions in Escape is the Aldo from Battle - he does not mention the name of the Gorilla commander in Beneath (actually it is General Ursus).

That cant be possible. Neither Cornelius or Zira could know the Aldo from Battle since he had not been born yet. Neither had Caesar. Even if their history had told them, the chimps started the revolution, not the gorillas. Perhaps this explains why the continuity error:

http://planetoftheapes.wikia.com/wiki/Aldo

When interviewed on their arrival in 1970's USA, Cornelius and Zira maintained that the ape takeover would be led by 'Aldo', the first ape to say the word "No". This was to occur about 500 years later. Either they were mistaken, they lied to protect their child, or they changed history by time-traveling. Early in Conquest of the Planet of the Apes, Caesar briefly saw a rebellious (mute) chimp called 'Aldo'. He was a chimp messenger for Governor Breck who struggled to break free but was beaten up by guards - prompting Caesar's outburst. A later scene showed Caesar being taken to work in the Command Post by Mr MacDonald, where he passed Aldo and they seemed to communicate silently with each other.

Given that earlier draft scripts for Conquest gave Aldo (explicitly meant to be a gorilla) a greater role in the movie, it seems that Aldo was intended to be the same character mentioned in Escape from the Planet of the Apes, and also that the chimp identity of Aldo was a continuity error. The adaptation of Conquest that appeared in Marvel Comicswas based on these earlier scripts - the writers hadn't actually seen the finished movie

Clearly, continuity errors here regarding Aldo.

 

[Joelist]

Why would either Cornelius or Zira have to know Aldo in order to name him as the leader of the ape rebellion? They are telling history - remember Cornelius stated that what he was relating was from historical scrolls he had read. So there is no reason at all that the Aldo in Battle cannot be the Aldo Cornelius mentioned.

It's pretty clear that the timeline was altered by the events of Escape from the Planet of the Apes. Cornelius and Zira have their baby in the past (Caesar) who becomes the Ape leader instead of Aldo. Aldo then commits the first Ape murder in Battle and dies in the confrontation with Caesar. As a result history changes and Aldo is a footnote in Ape history instead of its central figure - that is now Caesar. And Caesar having seen the videos in the Forbidden City acts to change that future - freeing the servile humans and laying the foundations for a combined Ape-Human society. The very end of Battle shows he succeeded as the lawgiver (now a Caesar disciple not an Aldo disciple) is the wise teacher of a combined community of apes and humans.

 

[YJ02]

You are right.



That is what I understand about the movie as well. I do not see Ceasar intentionally trying to change history because o Aldo or any of the future events. I see a Caesar driven by hate because his "father" (played by Ricardo Montalban) was killed protecting Caesar's identity (he jumped out of the window whilst being interrogated). That hate is what drove him. I also did not see anything about Aldo in any of the tapes, nor did I hear Zira or Cornelius mention Aldo in the recordings. I agreed with Joelist at first, then I watched Conquest and Battle today and saw that the tapes were only snippets from the scene in Escape where Zira and Cornelius were being cross examined by the military, the government and clergy. No Aldo was mentioned, therefore Caesar is not reacting to any future events.



That is what I think as well. I believe this next movie will explore that dynamic, and that the humans remaining on earth who want to kill all the apes rather than work with them will be a catalyst for all out war (the teasers confirm this on the web). At some point, nuclear weapons will be used in this PoA reboot which will result in destruction of human civilization on the surface. I dont see where a couple of astronauts could be a threat, and since this reboot is in modern times, I dont see a threat from space either. I think that the astronauts might come back through an anomaly later in this series, when the apes have taken over and are well established and the previous domination by humans is concealed from history by the ape society leaders.



I think they are using San Francisco as the "familiar" zone. When Caesar climbs that redwood tree in the first movie, I can just see him climbing that tree again in this coming movie, only the skyline of San Francisco has been reduced to ruin, or is on fire, etc. That is cool, because those redwoods are ALREADY more than 3000 years old, and they can easily live much longer than that. They (those redwoods) should be around all the way to the end of the complete series way in the future.

What I dont see is how they can "close the loop". In the original, the entire story was a causality loop which started where it ended. This series is linear, starting with the ALZ-113 and giving it to the captive apes. This means that the process of the rise of the apes is caused by only one human (Will Rodman), trying to cure his father's Alzheimer's. You cant create the causality loop. It means perhaps that the time travel element has been eliminated?

On the astronauts and Mars.... Humans did have 8 yrs to get more ppl either to orbit/space station of future (?) or to Mars

Could be used that certain "selected ppl" who survived (elites. government,some military) made it off the planet in that time

I think-at least IMO what I would like to see to make a more dynamic film/story, is for this to have happened. Ppl did leave the planet. Though not a large number, they are the power brokers of Earth and they have what is necessary to wage a war on the apes--so instead of having out of touch mutated survivors underground we could have them in space instead.

Of course I have no idea but I know they planted those Astronaut and Mars "eggs" in the first film for a reason.

I suppose they could come back later in a 'Taylor fashion' but that would be something directly lifted from the originals and so far they have not done direct plot lifts from the originals

Will be interesting to watch though, I hope it is received well so they continue the series of films

 

[YJ02]

True. Caesar was the catalyst for the uprising in the changed timeline. But the Aldo of the original timeline (which we never got to see), would have been a different gorilla mentality than the one which led to ape killing ape. The original Aldo would have been killing humans, not apes. Those lawgiver scenes (actually the entire movie which is done in third person in actuality) are taking place in the void between Battle and Planet of the Apes 1 when humans and apes are still living in peace and humans can still speak. That part of the first timeline of movies was never made. When did the humans become mute and feral? How did the castes develop within ape society? How did they form their world? All of that was ripe for storytelling.



He wanted peace at the end of Battle. There needed to be a seventh movie in the series to tell what happened after, but continuity is still maintained without it.

About the new reboot:

They made it linear. I wonder why they did that? Perhaps they wanted to avoid using time travel schtick? The astronauts being lost in space on the way to Mars is going to be a key element later on in this series. They will undoubtedly return in the future, perhaps through an anomaly?

The original book is so different than any of the films to date. All of the films are better than the book except for the Tim Burton one. I dont like the story told in the book nearly as much as the movies.

Perhaps TPTB fear that many of the film-goers won't have the attn span or brain capacity to tolerate a time travel issue?

 

[Overmind One]

Why would either Cornelius or Zira have to know Aldo in order to name him as the leader of the ape rebellion? They are telling history - remember Cornelius stated that what he was relating was from historical scrolls he had read. So there is no reason at all that the Aldo in Battle cannot be the Aldo Cornelius mentioned.

They did not name him as the leader of the ape rebellion. They named him as the first ape to say the word "No". But in the portrayed history of the movie, it was Caesar who started the ape rebellion. I think Caesar did change the future briefly (some 600 years). But we know that the future must happen in a way to allow Cornelius and Zira to exist so that they can come back in time and have Caesar. A causality loop.

 

[Joelist]

Not really. Anything after Battle is pure speculation.

Stories like this are ripe for causality problems. For example, the Voyager finale Endgame has the same problem. Admiral Janeway must go back in time at the correct date with the correct equipment and also act the correct way when back there or Voyager does not return when and how it did.

I might note that both causality loops can be closed in similar ways. In the ape problem they have it on record about two apes named Cornelius and Zira going back in time and having a baby back there who is Caesar. They also know what year to expect Taylor in. So, the knowledge is preserved in the scrolls of the ape-human world and when Cornelius, Zira and Milo come on the scene they are specially trained for their roles (what to say and who to say it to and so forth) so that when Taylor shows up they can salvage his ship and make the trip - closing the loop without also requiring the ape society to have become cruel and Earth to be blown up.

In the Voyager problem it is somewhat simpler. Starfleet needs to ensure nothing happens to Janeway before the designated date, that she is an Admiral and that she has the right vessel with the right technology. She then goes back in time just like before and that loop is closed.

 

[Overmind One]

Not really. Anything after Battle is pure speculation.

Stories like this are ripe for causality problems. For example, the Voyager finale Endgame has the same problem. Admiral Janeway must go back in time at the correct date with the correct equipment and also act the correct way when back there or Voyager does not return when and how it did.

I might note that both causality loops can be closed in similar ways. In the ape problem they have it on record about two apes named Cornelius and Zira going back in time and having a baby back there who is Caesar. They also know what year to expect Taylor in. So, the knowledge is preserved in the scrolls of the ape-human world and when Cornelius, Zira and Milo come on the scene they are specially trained for their roles (what to say and who to say it to and so forth) so that when Taylor shows up they can salvage his ship and make the trip - closing the loop without also requiring the ape society to have become cruel and Earth to be blown up.

In the Voyager problem it is somewhat simpler. Starfleet needs to ensure nothing happens to Janeway before the designated date, that she is an Admiral and that she has the right vessel with the right technology. She then goes back in time just like before and that loop is closed.

The new series is linear. How will they close the loop (if one is created in this version) if the flashpoint in the timeline is one human who invents ALZ-13, and gives it to an orphaned ape HE names Caesar? I think this series of Ape movies will be linear, but who knows? Im very impressed with the writing.

 

[Joelist]

And I sincerely hope we do NOT get time travel in it. So far the only show/film I have seen that figured out a way to handle it without causing the whole story to implode on itself is Doctor Who.

 

[Gatefan1976]

And I sincerely hope we do NOT get time travel in it. So far the only show/film I have seen that figured out a way to handle it without causing the whole story to implode on itself is Doctor Who.

Who had the good sense to have things like time locks and personal timelines.