Star Wars 1-3: The Prequels. Why do so many people hate them?

[Gatefan1976]

Perhaps not. But I know it is probable that Palpatine has a Force ghost, even though we have not yet seen him. He could be there to guide future Siths. From what I can see, the Force ghosts are only visible to Jedi (and I assume, Siths). When Luke saw Anakin, Yoda and Obi-Wan, I do not think anyone else could see them.

In the EU, people who are strong with the force can manifest their spirit (and yes, most of them are sith/dark side) after death, but it runs contrary to the will of the force (everything being a cycle), which is why you don't see many light side ones.
Yes, Force spirits are generally only able to be seen by those who are sensitive to the force, BUT there are not just Jedi and Sith, there are other force users out there (witches of Dathomir for a still canon example).
Have you watched the lost episodes (last season) of TCW yet?

 

[Overmind One]

In the EU, people who are strong with the force can manifest their spirit (and yes, most of them are sith/dark side) after death, but it runs contrary to the will of the force (everything being a cycle), which is why you don't see many light side ones.
Yes, Force spirits are generally only able to be seen by those who are sensitive to the force, BUT there are not just Jedi and Sith, there are other force users out there (witches of Dathomir for a still canon example).
Have you watched the lost episodes (last season) of TCW yet?

Yes, immediately after watching the series. I should watch the entire thing over again, as I enjoyed it very much and there is nothing I want to see on Netflix. I dont want to talk about those witches. They just make me laugh.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Yes, immediately after watching the series. I should watch the entire thing over again, as I enjoyed it very much and there is nothing I want to see on Netflix. I dont want to talk about those witches. They just make me laugh.

They may make you laugh, but they are canon now, weather you like it or not.
You might have liked them more when they trained Rancors as riding beasts

 

[Overmind One]

They may make you laugh, but they are canon now, weather you like it or not.
You might have liked them more when they trained Rancors as riding beasts

Dude, they had cauldrons....and spells. The way they used the Force to make things out of thin air. Perhaps if the way they used the Force was a bit toned down, I might not be so down on them. But because of the Force, these witches have actual powers in the Star Wars universe. Even Yoda cannot just make things out of thin air. Neither could the Emperor. But the witches of Dathomir can. That's why I don't like them. They are the Q of Star Wars.

 

[Joelist]

Our point was about how in the prequels all the characters come off as dumb, and also that Palpatine's plan required them to be dumb because with even average "street" smarts it never would have gotten off the ground. And yes in the prequels they specifically say (as noted above) that they specifically cannot sense Palpatine's feelings - in fact they specifically say "the Dark Side of the Force surrounds the chancellor" but cannot make the 100% obvious jump from there to the conclusion that he is a Sith?

Among the reasons that the prequels are so despised (overuse of CGI, flat acting, unbelievable characters), bad writing is near the top. And a goodly part of that bad writing is the way it feels like Palpatine exerts a "stupid" field over everyone around him which renders them incapable of logical thought.

Here is a section of a hilarious (and accurate) dissection of the prequels. It lists SOME (by no means all) of the "dumbness" issues (go to 37:20):

 

[Gatefan1976]

Our point was about how in the prequels all the characters come off as dumb, and also that Palpatine's plan required them to be dumb because with even average "street" smarts it never would have gotten off the ground.

How many movies can you say that about?
Even look at A New Hope.
How stupid is Tarkin to let 4 people and 2 droids off the death star?
How stupid are they to send 30 tie fighters to stop the rebels, when they have thousands?
How stupid is the design of the Death Star to have a port, just the right size for a few missiles to fit into that leads to the main reactor?
How stupid are they to not have a few star destroyers level the base on Yavin, or at least support their giant death star? You don't send out an Aircraft carrier with no support ships.....

Point being, ALL movies make these kinds of BS "common sense" errors, and if you want to pick apart one movie (or 3) you should do the same to the other three, yes?

And yes in the prequels they specifically say (as noted above) that they specifically cannot sense Palpatine's feelings - in fact they specifically say "the Dark Side of the Force surrounds the chancellor" but cannot make the 100% obvious jump from there to the conclusion that he is a Sith?

Right, cause a good way to cloak yourself it to put up a sign saying "nothing to see here" over an empty patch.
LOL!!!

Among the reasons that the prequels are so despised (overuse of CGI, flat acting, unbelievable characters), bad writing is near the top. And a goodly part of that bad writing is the way it feels like Palpatine exerts a "stupid" field over everyone around him which renders them incapable of logical thought.

I am not gonna defend the bad writing of them, it was bad. TCW is better written. What I am taking issue with is the vague "but it's dumb" when there is stuff in the movies to counter that dumbness. It's not well written, sure, but that does not mean it is not there.

Here is a section of a hilarious (and accurate) dissection of the prequels. It lists SOME (by no means all) of the "dumbness" issues (go to 37:20):

Yoda and the force.
Praytell, what do we -see- Yoda doing in TESB that is so different to what he does in 1-3?
Yoda throws rocks? Sure, Yoda moves a spaceship. OMFG!! it's SOOOO DIFFERENT!!
Limited to the mental and not the physical, hmm, I dunno, training? umm, waving your hands around or closing your eyes to draw on the more esoteric parts of the force (casting spells ) is harder than effecting your own body?
Yoda and Anakin, Yoda warns Anakin he is straying into elements of the dark side, and he is not raging with frustration, he is seeking guidance. In fact, the argument being made in the video is so baseless in that section that Plinkett is not only making shit up, he needs to pull in a few lines from his own fake backstory to make it slightly amusing.
That is section one of the review (on the dumb factor), and while funny, when you -really- look at it, there is no substance to his comments and it's nothing more than an echo chamber for people who have already made up their mind, and has no comparative critical thinking elements. A debate team member, Mr Plinkett is not.

 

[Overmind One]

How many movies can you say that about?
Even look at A New Hope.
How stupid is Tarkin to let 4 people and 2 droids off the death star?
How stupid are they to send 30 tie fighters to stop the rebels, when they have thousands?
How stupid is the design of the Death Star to have a port, just the right size for a few missiles to fit into that leads to the main reactor?
How stupid are they to not have a few star destroyers level the base on Yavin, or at least support their giant death star? You don't send out an Aircraft carrier with no support ships.....

Point being, ALL movies make these kinds of BS "common sense" errors, and if you want to pick apart one movie (or 3) you should do the same to the other three, yes?


Right, cause a good way to cloak yourself it to put up a sign saying "nothing to see here" over an empty patch.
LOL!!!


I am not gonna defend the bad writing of them, it was bad. TCW is better written. What I am taking issue with is the vague "but it's dumb" when there is stuff in the movies to counter that dumbness. It's not well written, sure, but that does not mean it is not there.


Yoda and the force.
Praytell, what do we -see- Yoda doing in TESB that is so different to what he does in 1-3?
Yoda throws rocks? Sure, Yoda moves a spaceship. OMFG!! it's SOOOO DIFFERENT!!
Limited to the mental and not the physical, hmm, I dunno, training? umm, waving your hands around or closing your eyes to draw on the more esoteric parts of the force (casting spells ) is harder than effecting your own body?
Yoda and Anakin, Yoda warns Anakin he is straying into elements of the dark side, and he is not raging with frustration, he is seeking guidance. In fact, the argument being made in the video is so baseless in that section that Plinkett is not only making shit up, he needs to pull in a few lines from his own fake backstory to make it slightly amusing.
That is section one of the review (on the dumb factor), and while funny, when you -really- look at it, there is no substance to his comments and it's nothing more than an echo chamber for people who have already made up their mind, and has no comparative critical thinking elements. A debate team member, Mr Plinkett is not.

The average Star Wars movie goer is not going to analyze it to the degree you are doing. My feeling about Yoda being dumber in the prequels is a "general" feeling from watching the three films. He seems dumber. I said it was hard to articulate why. Like Ashoka in TCW/Rebels. They are two completely different characters. Since she was my favorite character in TCW, it was important that she be true to her character in Rebels, and she is not. Not at all. Yoda is like that. He talks the same, looks the same, but his wisdom and overall character seems diminished when compared to his original in the OT. Maybe it just SEEMS that way, but that is my feeling on it. I just happen to share that feeling with Joelist. It does not mean we are "right" or that those feelings carry any more weight than your thoughts on it. Just sayin...

 

[Gatefan1976]

The average Star Wars movie goer is not going to analyze it to the degree you are doing.

The average star wars goer is not going to do it the way plinkett did either. That is my point dude. It's a funny review, but it has no basis when you do scrutinize it the way he is doing it. If he can dish it, surely the review should be able to take it, and it simply can't. it's a more polished version of "Lucas destroyed my childhood", something he -says- he is not doing, but he damn well is!!

My feeling about Yoda being dumber in the prequels is a "general" feeling from watching the three films. He seems dumber. I said it was hard to articulate why. Like Ashoka in TCW/Rebels. They are two completely different characters. Since she was my favorite character in TCW, it was important that she be true to her character in Rebels, and she is not. Not at all. Yoda is like that. He talks the same, looks the same, but his wisdom and overall character seems diminished when compared to his original in the OT. Maybe it just SEEMS that way, but that is my feeling on it. I just happen to share that feeling with Joelist. It does not mean we are "right" or that those feelings carry any more weight than your thoughts on it. Just sayin...

Like I said, that's cool, I am just trying to understand it. He feels off to you two, ok, I get it. He does not to me, anymore than the effect of some poor writing.

 

[Overmind One]

The average star wars goer is not going to do it the way plinkett did either. That is my point dude. It's a funny review, but it has no basis when you do scrutinize it the way he is doing it. If he can dish it, surely the review should be able to take it, and it simply can't. it's a more polished version of "Lucas destroyed my childhood", something he -says- he is not doing, but he damn well is!!

Im not that into the Plinkett reviews because they are just TOO LONG. The embedded video is the length of a full length feature film! I cannot take his droning voice or the corny humor for that long. I did not base my comments on Plinkett's review. I get what you are saying though...

Like I said, that's cool, I am just trying to understand it. He feels off to you two, ok, I get it. He does not to me, anymore than the effect of some poor writing.

Qui-Jon Jinn sounded like and acted like a Jedi Master, but to me Obi-Wan seemed off. More like a big brother or a concerned uncle instead of a Jedi Master with a Padawan.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Im not that into the Plinkett reviews because they are just TOO LONG. The embedded video is the length of a full length feature film! I cannot take his droning voice or the corny humor for that long. I did not base my comments on Plinkett's review. I get what you are saying though...

Sure, but it was not you who brought the review up though
TBH, 1-3 just don't do much for me, besides the stuff with the Jedi and the space battles, because I definitely have my fan shades on for those parts, but the movies as a whole, it would not concern me if I never saw them again. They are not memorable for being very good, or very bad. In fact the only thing I got out of them was TCW series, cause it's good
They just don't get an emotional response out of me enough to praise, or slam them, they are meh.

Qui-Jon Jinn sounded like and acted like a Jedi Master, but to me Obi-Wan seemed off. More like a big brother or a concerned uncle instead of a Jedi Master with a Padawan.

Well, Obi-wan started training Anakin as a Jedi Knight, not a master and he was never really "master-ish", even when he was on the council. Qui-Gon certainly was more of a master, and probably more in tune with the force than most of the council, except perhaps Yoda.

 

[YJ02]

I agree. He will be guidance for Luke in this if he shows up. It would not make sense for him not to be in there somewhere even if just as a Force ghost.

No, he could not, he never could, and if he could, show me where in the movie he can.

Feel, yes, but he did not know what would happen at Bespin. In fact, he did not even try to until -Luke- saw it, and still could not see what was happening. He knew that people that Luke cared about were in danger, and that if luke went, it would be dangerous for him.

Cause "Away put your weapons, I mean you no harm" is super philosophical
Talking in Zen Koan style doesn't make you philosophical, usually it makes you a wanker.

Palpatine used the dark side to cloak himself, and his apprentices, that's even in the movies. They -knew- there was a sith lord, but not who it was.

When did he know that?
He felt the rage in Anikan when he killed the Sand people because it was a strong emotion, and he knew about the temple because the younglings were slaughtered.

Anakin is the strongest beacon of the force in existence, why is it surprising Yoda can detect -him-.

Fine, but a "feeling" is not facts dude.

bolded= He is using the Force...

 

[YJ02]

Right. Why would he have to tell Anakin that? Anakin was supposed to be this Convergence dude, so why did he seem so naive? Im more bothered that Yoda did not see it first. I am not buying that he cloaked himself from detection using the Force. If he could do that, then no wonder he was able to destroy the Republic the way he did. He claimed that he was going to teach Anakin how to cheat death. That means he knew how to do that already, and that he *might* not have died when Anakin threw him over that railing in Return of the Jedi. This is only a question because of what the prequels did to the story.

Anakin was denied trng as a Jedi

QG did it anyway

Yoda didn't either want to see Anakin as a disruptor in the force using world or he just thought him too old, and too much invested in the "ways of the world" (pod racing and all).

He may of also just thought he was an idiot as well--hence the Hayden C. casting later on

Palpatine wanted a new apprentice who was naive and maybe even dull to the ways of common sense/ recognizing evil

he did not want another "Second" who would question him at all--like Dooku did

he wanted someone strong with the force but dull with the wits--having to explain his evil to Anakin showed this

a part of the rage we see DV express in RoftJedi? When he threw the Emp down the shaft... a sudden realization that all of those yrs he was just a bitch boy, running errands and NEVER asked for his opinions.

just a thought

maybe the Ren Knights "worship" Vader because they know that he was a mis-used and undeveloped Sith talent-one who should have been emperor rather then Palpatine--we haven't seen any trailer action where they 'worship' Palpatine, just saying.

 

[YJ02]

The average Star Wars movie goer is not going to analyze it to the degree you are doing. My feeling about Yoda being dumber in the prequels is a "general" feeling from watching the three films. He seems dumber. I said it was hard to articulate why. Like Ashoka in TCW/Rebels. They are two completely different characters. Since she was my favorite character in TCW, it was important that she be true to her character in Rebels, and she is not. Not at all. Yoda is like that. He talks the same, looks the same, but his wisdom and overall character seems diminished when compared to his original in the OT. Maybe it just SEEMS that way, but that is my feeling on it. I just happen to share that feeling with Joelist. It does not mean we are "right" or that those feelings carry any more weight than your thoughts on it. Just sayin...

A lot has happend to Ashoka

she is no longer a teenager

Order 66 went down

the Rebellion began-she found new purpose-no longer an insignificant cog in a huge war machine, but in the top echelon of Rebellion leadership-she may even know about Luke and Leia-they are now the same age as Ezra BTW-ever pick up on that? not saying it is anything other then an interesting choice by TPTB.

and-she has completed her Jedi/Force use trng just where exactly-the "Sisters" perhaps? we don't have that info yet

there has been no real "Ashoka Episode" in REBELS yet, maybe there will be one and will get some clarity on why the character is changed

 

[Joelist]

I only posted the review as an example, and as I noted it is a partial list. A big reason those reviews caught on like they did (and they did) is that they make valid points (which they do). The prequels were three of the worst movies ever made, and did a lot of damage to Star Wars especially the backstories.

 

[Overmind One]

A lot has happend to Ashoka

she is no longer a teenager

Order 66 went dow

She must have gotten plastic surgery too.

the Rebellion began-she found new purpose-no longer an insignificant cog in a huge war machine, but in the top echelon of Rebellion leadership-she may even know about Luke and Leia-they are now the same age as Ezra BTW-ever pick up on that? not saying it is anything other then an interesting choice by TPTB.

and-she has completed her Jedi/Force use trng just where exactly-the "Sisters" perhaps? we don't have that info yet

there has been no real "Ashoka Episode" in REBELS yet, maybe there will be one and will get some clarity on why the character is changed

I don't watch Rebels because of Ashoka, and because the writing took a dump.

 

[Gatefan1976]

I only posted the review as an example, and as I noted it is a partial list. A big reason those reviews caught on like they did (and they did)

So did twilight, doesn't make them "good" or accurate. People went looking for these "undefined feelings", found that review and liked it. So what?
I can find a few million people who think FOX news is fair and balanced, doesn't make it so, does it?

is that they make valid points (which they do).

He spends more time bitching about Lucas and his coffee than he does making any valid critique. I'm sorry, but the guy needs his fan dummy back because he whined it across the room. He spends almost 2 hours being a little more eloquent than Francis here:

Will probably have the same reaction if he doesn't get tickets to Episode VII as well............

The prequels were three of the worst movies ever made, and did a lot of damage to Star Wars especially the backstories.

I could think of plenty of movies that are worse than 1-3.
As for the backstories............. what backstories?
Everything that was made for the backstories was canned -except for the prequals- so what damage did they do? they changed 1000 generations to 1000 years? Man, that just breaks the movies.......

Yes, 1-3 had bad writing, and they should have had the common sense to fact check 4-6 before screwing the pooch in 1-3 on a few things, but really, it's worth producing a critique almost as long as the movie complaining about errors, while making your own?

 

[Joelist]

Actually that particular "review" is part review part comedy schtick. And it put its authors (who are filmmakers themselves and screenwriters in their own right) on the proverbial map, getting notice and raves from individuals ranging from Simon Pegg to Roger Ebert among others. And they noted the whole element of how there was in depth analysis wrapped in a lowbrow comedy wrapper. So trying to dismiss it as some guy needing his fan dummy back is wide of the mark.

As to why I regard the prequels as three of the worst movies ever made, it is the noxious combination of flat acting, poor writing, overuse of CGI and poor characterizations that make them bad movies. Where they go beyond bad to me is the huge violence they did to what was a well written sci-fantasy story in episodes 4-6. Even with the retconning Lucas did plus the work done in TCW and Rebels to try to make the prequels fit together with the OT they still don't align properly. Here are just a couple of the places:

- In the OT Vader was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. It was that simple. Then in the prequels it is turned into Vader in essence being tricked into the Dark Side? It was ridiculous.

- In the OT Obi-Wan flat out states that the predicament they are in is his fault. He flatly states that he took it on himself to train Anakin as a Jedi believing he could train him as well as Yoda. Meanwhile, in the prequels we have the Council (including Yoda) direct Obi Wan to train Anakin.

- In the OT it is made pretty clear that the reason Luke prevails against the Emperor's luring him to the Dark Side was his being a fully trained Jedi Knight, and that it was the lack of said training in Vader that led to his turning. Meanwhile, in the prequels fully trained Jedi Anakin turns pretty much for no logical reason and on the basis of spurious statements from someone obviously not trustworthy.

- In the OT Yoda comes across as wise and as not needing things like lightsabers. Indeed in the OT it comes across as swordplay is secondary to a Jedi and that proper use of the Force is primary. In the prequels it is reversed and Yoda does come off as stupid (as do a lot of characters).

And so on and so on and so on.

Obviously we will never agree on this. For some reason you hold the prequels to be better than I do. That's fine.

 

[Overmind One]

So did twilight, doesn't make them "good" or accurate. People went looking for these "undefined feelings", found that review and liked it. So what?
I can find a few million people who think FOX news is fair and balanced, doesn't make it so, does it?

He spends more time bitching about Lucas and his coffee than he does making any valid critique. I'm sorry, but the guy needs his fan dummy back because he whined it across the room. He spends almost 2 hours being a little more eloquent than Francis here:

Will probably have the same reaction if he doesn't get tickets to Episode VII as well............


I could think of plenty of movies that are worse than 1-3.
As for the backstories............. what backstories?
Everything that was made for the backstories was canned -except for the prequals- so what damage did they do? they changed 1000 generations to 1000 years? Man, that just breaks the movies.......

Yes, 1-3 had bad writing, and they should have had the common sense to fact check 4-6 before screwing the pooch in 1-3 on a few things, but really, it's worth producing a critique almost as long as the movie complaining about errors, while making your own?

The prequels were shit IMO. People who think otherwise are clearly in the minority. Now WHY they think this of the prequels seems to vary from fan to fan, some say it is because of Jar Jar, others the overuse of CGI, others because everything is so pretty and clean, and yet others for writing. Usually several of these things (and many other reasons I did not list) are reasons. Yet, I can find dozens of articles from those who think the prequels were even BETTER than the originals.

Numbers wise, Star Wars I: The Phantom Menace made the most of all of the Star Wars films (over 1 billion worldwide). The other two prequels each made on average 10 TIMES more than the most successful OT film which was RotJ at 572 million. Still, they are considered shit by the majority of Star Wars fans. So, there are many ways to measure these films. None are necessarily "correct".

As far as Plinkett, anyone who thinks people should watch a review that is almost two hours long needs to re-think their review! The droning voice and corny humor can easily carry up to say...30 minutes of interest. Beyond that, I don't think so! Having said that, much of what he says is spot on. He just tends to drone on about single aspects of the review for too long. Why almost 5 solid minutes showing us a cutout of some kid who is supposed to be the child version of Han Solo, superimposed into scenes of the movies? I GET IT, okay? I liked the laugh tracks he added to some of the scenes.

 

[Joelist]

I never said I liked the comedy schtick part of it. But it is how they presented the "review". Plinkett is a made up character (a centegenarian serial killer?). But yes under the schtick is a well reasoned critique.

 

[Overmind One]

Actually that particular "review" is part review part comedy schtick. And it put its authors (who are filmmakers themselves and screenwriters in their own right) on the proverbial map, getting notice and raves from individuals ranging from Simon Pegg to Roger Ebert among others. And they noted the whole element of how there was in depth analysis wrapped in a lowbrow comedy wrapper. So trying to dismiss it as some guy needing his fam dummy back is wide of the mark.

I agree here. Plinkett is rising in popularity, not sinking. And he is most definitely not just some internet meme here today gone tomorrow. I do think he overdid this particular piece...almost TWO HOURS?

As to why I regard the prequels as three of the worst movies ever made, it is the noxious combination of flat acting, poor writing, overuse of CGI and poor characterizations that make them bad movies. Where they go beyond bad to me is the huge violence they did to what was a well written sci-fantasy story in episodes 4-6. Even with the retconning Lucas did plus the work done in TCW and Rebels to try to make the prequels fit together with the OT they still don't align properly. Here are just a couple of the places:

They made the movies about a trade dispute and politics? . They made the unfortunate decision to continue the dumb politics into Padme's character in TCW.

- In the OT Vader was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. It was that simple. Then in the prequels it is turned into Vader in essence being tricked into the Dark Side? It was ridiculous.

- In the OT Obi-Wan flat out states that the predicament they are in is his fault. He flatly states that he took it on himself to train Anakin as a Jedi believing he could train him as well as Yoda. Meanwhile, in the prequels we have the Council (including Yoda) direct Obi Wan to train Anakin.

- In the OT it is made pretty clear that the reason Luke prevails against the Emperor's luring him to the Dark Side was his being a fully trained Jedi Knight, and that it was the lack of said training in Vader that led to his turning. Meanwhile, in the prequels fully trained Jedi Anakin turns pretty much for no logical reason and on the basis of spurious statements from someone obviously not trustworthy.

- In the OT Yoda comes across as wise and as not needing things like lightsabers. Indeed in the OT it comes across as swordplay is secondary to a Jedi and that proper use of the Force is primary. In the prequels it is reversed and Yoda does come off as stupid (as do a lot of characters).

And so on and so on and so on.

Agree on all of that.

Obviously we will never agree on this. For some reason you hold the prequels to be better than I do. That's fine.

He likes them, I think. Or, at least he does not hate them like we do.