Star Wars 1-3: The Prequels. Why do so many people hate them?

[Overmind One]

I thought this deserved it's own thread. Most Star Wars fans say they hate the prequel movies The Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith. It is not always clear why they are hated, but a variety of reasons are usually commonly listed:

• The over use of CGI
• The "clean and pretty" look of everything
• Anakin (both the child and the adult)
• The relationship between Padme and Anakin
• Padme (her being a politician)
• The invention of the Midichlorians
• Dumbing down of characters (Yoda, Obi-Wan, Anakin)
• Centering the story around trade disputes.
• The Jedi Council
• Design elements
• Boba Fett

On the other hand, there are websites with articles and fans of the prequels who believe that they are not only good, but BETTER than the original trilogy films.

Your thoughts?

 

[Joelist]

No one really knows. (why Boba Fett has rabid fans)

In the horrid prequels a stupid plotline was invented where the clones are based on his father. I guess the separate film was just to play to that audience. In the core films he doesn't even deserve a name drop.

 

[Overmind One]

No one really knows.

In the horrid prequels a stupid plotline was invented where the clones are based on his father. I guess the separate film was just to play to that audience. In the core films he doesn't even deserve a name drop.

Exactly right...but there is a group of RABID Boba Fett fans. The way they talk about him, Boba is almost as large as Darth Vader . I am not a fan of him at all.

 

[Overmind One]

I hear the dummy comments about Yoda in 1-3, but I don't know how people get to it.
Anyone care to enlighten me?

They made him seem less wise.

 

[Joelist]

They made him seem less wise.

Yep. It is part of an overall issue in the prequels of ALL the "good guys" and indeed the bad guys too coming off as pretty dumb. With even average thinking ability on the part of the good guys Palpatine would have been identified as a Sith almost immediately and his preposterous plan would have flopped on its face.

 

[Gatefan1976]

They made him seem less wise.

how?

 

[Gatefan1976]

Yep. It is part of an overall issue in the prequels of ALL the "good guys" and indeed the bad guys too coming off as pretty dumb. With even average thinking ability on the part of the good guys Palpatine would have been identified as a Sith almost immediately and his preposterous plan would have flopped on its face.

Again, how?

 

[Overmind One]

Again, how?

It is hard to articulate it. In the OT, Yoda could sense every imbalance in the force. He could "feel" the future. His dialogue was more philosophical and had more substance. In the prequels, he had lines like "Around the survivors a perimeter make". Then his Force powers seemed attenuated, like he could not tell that Palpatine was a Sith Lord. How could he not know that, but he knew that Anakin had gone to the Dark Side? Why would he have such a connection with Anakin? It was way more than these things, but he just seemed....dumber, overall.

Its like comparing Clone Wars with Rebels. Clone Wars (to me) is way better and the writing is better and the characters are better. But if you asked me why, I might not be able to explain it.

 

[Joelist]

Also that Yoda and Mace Windu both noted that they could not search Palpatine's feelings but failed to make the utterly obvious connection that if Palpy could block their Force sense he had to have Force skills of his own, and on the Dark Side. Ergo Sith.

 

[Overmind One]

Also that Yoda and Mace Windu both noted that they could not search Palpatine's feelings but failed to make the utterly obvious connection that if Palpy could block their Force sense he had to have Force skills of his own, and on the Dark Side. Ergo Sith.

EXACTLY. Also, there would have had to have been a history of Palpatine from the past. What good are the Jedi Archives if they do not have that information? If Quijon could "sense" the convergence of the Force in Anakin, why could Yoda not sense the evil in Palpatine? They did not just make Yoda dumb, they also made Anakin dumb after he grew up from the brilliant and resourceful kid he was in the same prequel series.

 

[Joelist]

Lest we forget Palpatine had to flat out tell Anakin he was evil because Anakin could not figure out that someone who constantly spoke of the Jedi with contempt and spoke of the advantages of being a Sith Lord (not to mention knowing Sith lore)......might be a Sith Lord.

 

[Gatefan1976]

It is hard to articulate it. In the OT, Yoda could sense every imbalance in the force.

No, he could not, he never could, and if he could, show me where in the movie he can.

He could "feel" the future.

Feel, yes, but he did not know what would happen at Bespin. In fact, he did not even try to until -Luke- saw it, and still could not see what was happening. He knew that people that Luke cared about were in danger, and that if luke went, it would be dangerous for him.

His dialogue was more philosophical and had more substance. In the prequels, he had lines like "Around the survivors a perimeter make".

Cause "Away put your weapons, I mean you no harm" is super philosophical
Talking in Zen Koan style doesn't make you philosophical, usually it makes you a wanker.

Then his Force powers seemed attenuated, like he could not tell that Palpatine was a Sith Lord.

Palpatine used the dark side to cloak himself, and his apprentices, that's even in the movies. They -knew- there was a sith lord, but not who it was.

How could he not know that, but he knew that Anakin had gone to the Dark Side?

When did he know that?
He felt the rage in Anikan when he killed the Sand people because it was a strong emotion, and he knew about the temple because the younglings were slaughtered.

Why would he have such a connection with Anakin? It was way more than these things, but he just seemed....dumber, overall.

Anakin is the strongest beacon of the force in existence, why is it surprising Yoda can detect -him-.

Its like comparing Clone Wars with Rebels. Clone Wars (to me) is way better and the writing is better and the characters are better. But if you asked me why, I might not be able to explain it.

Fine, but a "feeling" is not facts dude.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Lest we forget Palpatine had to flat out tell Anakin he was evil because Anakin could not figure out that someone who constantly spoke of the Jedi with contempt and spoke of the advantages of being a Sith Lord (not to mention knowing Sith lore)......might be a Sith Lord.

Anakin -trusted- Palpatine, and Palpatine used that trust to say, and sway Anakin to do what he wanted. He played on Anakin's fears after his mother was killed, and he groomed him since he was a kid to believe in him and trust him. Even from the get go, Anakin was susceptible to the dark side, and the Council knew it, which he was initially denied training as a Jedi.

 

[Overmind One]

No, he could not, he never could, and if he could, show me where in the movie he can.

Show me where he CANT. It is never said explicitly, but it is implied to the audience. You need to put on your "regular viewer" hat and take off that Stormtrooper hat and remove your fan membership badge for a minute.

Feel, yes, but he did not know what would happen at Bespin. In fact, he did not even try to until -Luke- saw it, and still could not see what was happening. He knew that people that Luke cared about were in danger, and that if luke went, it would be dangerous for him.

In the prequels, Yoda seemed like his Force powers were not as strong. Again, my opinions on it but it just felt that way.

Cause "Away put your weapons, I mean you no harm" is super philosophical
Talking in Zen Koan style doesn't make you philosophical, usually it makes you a wanker.

Yoda should not have been on that helicopter thingie in the battle at all. IMO. It just seemed...inappropriate. Yoda seems to have been established as the de facto "leader" of the Jedi, even though it has never been put like that explicitly. It seemed wierd to see him out there on the front lines like that.

Palpatine used the dark side to cloak himself, and his apprentices, that's even in the movies. They -knew- there was a sith lord, but not who it was.

That is ONLY in the prequels. It was never said how Palpatine cloaked himself or his apprentices with the Force, or how he managed to fool ALL of the Jedi. That is part of the dumbness of the prequels and of Yoda in them. Why would Palpatine be that much more powerful than 900-year old Yoda? Im not buying the "Force cloak" explanation at all. You have an explanation for yourself, but it is not necessarily fact. They should have explained how that was possible.

When did he know that?
He felt the rage in Anikan when he killed the Sand people because it was a strong emotion, and he knew about the temple because the younglings were slaughtered.

He felt that Anakin was going to go to the Dark Side even when he was a child. Speaking of emotions, he should have felt Anakin's love for Padme too.

Anakin is the strongest beacon of the force in existence, why is it surprising Yoda can detect -him-.

Sure, but again that is set up by the prequels, along with midichlorians. Anakin might be a beacon, but the most powerful user of the Force in all of the Star Wars movies appears to be Palpatine, not Anakin or even Yoda. Palpatine seems be the most powerful entity shown in any of the Star Wars movies in the OT or the prequels. Just an observation.

As you put it so well...."Fine, but a "feeling" is not facts dude."

Everything you just wrote are your feelings, and they are different from mine. They are not necessarily *facts*. Your interpretations sound more lengthy, but they are no more or less valid than mine, are they? You asked why I felt that Yoda was dumber in the prequels, and you have my *general* answer. I cannot completely articulate it, but my feelings remain unchanged.

I wonder if Joe will give his explanation a stab?

 

[Overmind One]

Lest we forget Palpatine had to flat out tell Anakin he was evil because Anakin could not figure out that someone who constantly spoke of the Jedi with contempt and spoke of the advantages of being a Sith Lord (not to mention knowing Sith lore)......might be a Sith Lord.

Right. Why would he have to tell Anakin that? Anakin was supposed to be this Convergence dude, so why did he seem so naive? Im more bothered that Yoda did not see it first. I am not buying that he cloaked himself from detection using the Force. If he could do that, then no wonder he was able to destroy the Republic the way he did. He claimed that he was going to teach Anakin how to cheat death. That means he knew how to do that already, and that he *might* not have died when Anakin threw him over that railing in Return of the Jedi. This is only a question because of what the prequels did to the story.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Show me where he CANT. It is never said explicitly, but it is implied to the audience. You need to put on your "regular viewer" hat and take off that Stormtrooper hat and remove your fan membership badge for a minute.

Umm, default position is "it can't be done unless shown", not the other way around dude
It's not implied, it's not shown, so the onus is on you to prove your theory.
As for me having my fan goggles on, I -really- don't for this, if I did, I would be more inclined to agree with you, don't you think?

In the prequels, Yoda seemed like his Force powers were not as strong. Again, my opinions on it but it just felt that way.

What do you see him do in T.E.S.B?
He can raise and X-wing, but you see him use the force for TK in 1-3, He can use farsight and some futuresight, but it is unclear, just as it is in 1-3.
Methinks you should check -your- fan goggles my friend

Yoda should not have been on that helicopter thingie in the battle at all. IMO. It just seemed...inappropriate. Yoda seems to have been established as the de facto "leader" of the Jedi, even though it has never been put like that explicitly. It seemed wierd to see him out there on the front lines like that.

Mace is the leader of the council, not Yoda. Was it odd to see him in the Gunship? Sure, but this is some 25-30 years before TESB, and the light side of the force is strong (plus, there is the Yoda-centric storyline from the lost tales of TCW which could explain why he went "downhill" so fast)
Besides (put's of fan glasses ) I wanted to see Yoda kick some ass!!

That is ONLY in the prequels. It was never said how Palpatine cloaked himself or his apprentices with the Force, or how he managed to fool ALL of the Jedi. That is part of the dumbness of the prequels and of Yoda in them. Why would Palpatine be that much more powerful than 900-year old Yoda? Im not buying the "Force cloak" explanation at all. You have an explanation for yourself, but it is not necessarily fact. They should have explained how that was possible.

They did, in the movies

Obi-Wan: I have to admit that without the clones, it would have not been a victory.
Yoda: Victory? Victory you say? Master Obi-Wan, not victory. The shroud of the dark side has fallen. Begun the Clone War has.

Count Dooku: What if I told you that the Republic was now under the control of a dark lord of the Sith?
Obi-Wan: No, that's not possible. The Jedi would sense it.
Count Dooku: The Dark Side has clouded their vision. Hundreds of senators are now under the influence of a Sith lord called Darth Sidious.
Obi-Wan: I don't believe you.

MOST IMPORTANTLY:
Yoda: Blind we are, of creation of this clone army we could not see.
Mace Windu: I think it is time we inform the senate that our ability to use the force has diminished.
Yoda: Only a Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness. If informed the senate is, multiply our adversaries will.

He felt that Anakin was going to go to the Dark Side even when he was a child. Speaking of emotions, he should have felt Anakin's love for Padme too.

No, he noted that he was full of Emotions, namely fear, and fear is the first step on the path to the dark side. Also, he never wanted Anakin trained, the council overrode Yoda's decision.

As you put it so well...."Fine, but a "feeling" is not facts dude."

Everything you just wrote are your feelings, and they are different from mine.

Nope, these are the facts and quotes dude.
If I put my fan goggles on, they would not be the same.

They are not necessarily *facts*. Your interpretations sound more lengthy, but they are no more or less valid than mine, are they? You asked why I felt that Yoda was dumber in the prequels, and you have my *general* answer. I cannot completely articulate it, but my feelings remain unchanged.

That's fine, I just don't think there is much -reason- to feel that way, but sure, I'm not gonna tell you how to feel about it

I wonder if Joe will give his explanation a stab?

Not sure, we will see

 

[Gatefan1976]

Right. Why would he have to tell Anakin that? Anakin was supposed to be this Convergence dude, so why did he seem so naive?

Power does not equal the wisdom to use it.

Im more bothered that Yoda did not see it first. I am not buying that he cloaked himself from detection using the Force. If he could do that, then no wonder he was able to destroy the Republic the way he did.

Well, see above.

He claimed that he was going to teach Anakin how to cheat death. That means he knew how to do that already, and that he *might* not have died when Anakin threw him over that railing in Return of the Jedi. This is only a question because of what the prequels did to the story.

No, that means he -claimed- to know how to do it. In the EU, he does it via cloning his body and sending his force spirit to inhabit the cloned body, but that is now gone.
Lets face it, he wanted Anakin to go dark side, he would have told him anything to get what he wanted.

 

[Overmind One]

Power does not equal the wisdom to use it.

Well, see above.

No, that means he -claimed- to know how to do it. In the EU, he does it via cloning his body and sending his force spirit to inhabit the cloned body, but that is now gone.
Lets face it, he wanted Anakin to go dark side, he would have told him anything to get what he wanted.

Without including the EU, it is entirely possible that Palpatine's Force ghost could inhabit another body, is it not? We have not seen Palpatine's ghost, but there has to be one.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Without including the EU, it is entirely possible that Palpatine's Force ghost could inhabit another body, is it not? We have not seen Palpatine's ghost, but there has to be one.

Nope, there is no evidence of a force spirit being able to possess a body in the slightest. Even in the -majority- of the EU that is impossible (the cloned Emperors were blank biological "specimens" of his younger form that never attained consciousness) In the RPG however (so -really off canon), yes, you can force switch a personality for a short time, and even stay in a new body if you kill your old one)

 

[Overmind One]

Nope, there is no evidence of a force spirit being able to possess a body in the slightest. Even in the -majority- of the EU that is impossible (the cloned Emperors were blank biological "specimens" of his younger form that never attained consciousness) In the RPG however (so -really off canon), yes, you can force switch a personality for a short time, and even stay in a new body if you kill your old one)

Perhaps not. But I know it is probable that Palpatine has a Force ghost, even though we have not yet seen him. He could be there to guide future Siths. From what I can see, the Force ghosts are only visible to Jedi (and I assume, Siths). When Luke saw Anakin, Yoda and Obi-Wan, I do not think anyone else could see them.