YJ02
Well Known GateFan
Look at any operational / command structure flow chart of op's in Iraq and A-stan and you will see that the Marines fall under the command of the theatre commander, In both instances it is usually an Army General. As far as tactical op's-look at the Invasion of Iraq in 2003, the Marines were just another prong of the American thrust-as were the British, all under the operational command of the Army.
And "camp rhino" was secured by the 75th ranger regiment so the 15th MEU would have a secure place to fly into-period.
If the Marines lead the way everywhere all the time then why are there no Marines assigned to Europe (other then the security of Naval Bases and at Embassies)? Why no Marines in S Korea? In the Korean War, the first Americans to go in was the Army's 24th Infantry Division. The 82nd Airborne were the first Americans to land in Saudi Arabia in 1990. The most impactful mission the Marines had in Desert Storm were as a diversion "faking" a beach landing in Kuwait.
as to your comment: "But the Army is a separate branch, and is the largest military branch. There is no protocol which could allow the Army to command the Marines under any circumstances."
The command of the Marines in the Korean War:
"MacArthur activated X Corps under General Almond to land at Inchon in Operation CHROMITE. X Corps comprised 70,000 troops of the 1st Marine Division, and the 7th Army division (augmented by 8,600 Korean troops). Almond led 25,000 Marines and soldiers to a successful landing on 15 September 1950; casualties were 200, with 21 killed. Inchon was immediately hailed as one of the most brilliant and decisive tactical moves in military history as X Corps rolled east over the few defenders and threatening to trap the main North Korean army. MacArthur quickly recaptured Seoul. The North Koreans, almost cut off, raced north; about 25,000 to 30,000 made it back. [13]" (from "A history of the Korean War and the Operations of the Eighth United States Army)"
The Marines are not a force that can sustain itself for any protracted amount of time without a huge amount of support from the Army and the Air Force. Additionally, the USMC has neither the size nor the organization needed to command and control an entire theatre operation on its own. They must coordinate with the major Army component for anything from planning for offensive and defensive actions, clearances to use a road for convoy, airspace and artillery fire coordination and logistics.
During the 2003 Iraq war, the 1 Marines were under the operational control of the US Army's V Corp. All forces were under the supreme command of Gen Tommy Franks and the US Army's Central Command
here is an official history : http://www.history.army.mil/html/books/059/59-3-1/CMH_59-3-1.pdf
the only time in Iraq that the Marines were in Command of an area under their own General was in Al-Anbar province and known as "Multi National Division-West". This command though still relied on Army Logistics and Air Support particularly for MEDEVAC purposes.
As far as protocol--rank is rank, regardless of branch. From AIT, (marine artillery surveyors and a whole ass load of other jobs attend Army schools) where the Marines in our class fell into our morning accountability and PT formations (and yes, they were required to do PT with us, I was there-saw it whether you like it or not) and were marched to class with us by our "tac sgts (before they put Drills back into AIT)". To CALFEX's (combined arms live fire exercises) where Marine forward observers called in targets based on an Army officer's direction and then their calls for fire were processed and calculated by an Army Fire Direction Center (18th Airborne Corps "LiveEx" at Ft Stewart GA, 1989-again I was there). Or just the ability of an Army SGT telling a Marine Corporal to button his blouse in the PX parking lot (or a MARINE Sgt telling a soldier the same) rank is rank regardless of the branch or even nationality of the service.
The MARINE attitude of supposedly being 'better' then the other services is exactly what is used by army recruiters to deconstruct the Marine's pitch. For example; how can they be better when they make you pay for your initial issue of clothing? All of the other services issue for free the initial basic training "bag of uniforms". How are they better when they accrue your pay and you receive no pay until after you complete training? The other services pay by direct deposit after the first 2 weeks of enlistment. If a Marine recruit is married or has bills to pay, they all have to wait until the training is over. How many families will go hungry or a house lost or car repossessed because one chose to join a service who does not pay until after at least, 4 months of service? All the marines promise at enlistment is that you will be a marine, any specific job you may want is "listed" on the contract 'wish list' but there is no guarantee that training will ever be received. The Army and Navy guarantee the job selected by the recruit as an integral part of the enlistment contract.
Marine recruiters knew the faults of their recruiting mission; they sucked in the high schools and colleges at recruiting. We did very good, so the MARINE recr's would go in to a school act the fool in the hopes that the schools admin would kick out all of the services. What kind of professionalism is that?
Look ,I don't want to have a high schooler's argument either. But you have taken what I initially said; that you were only in for one enlistment-as a personal affront, In actuality I was only referencing your time in service as a comparison to mine and to display that the longer one is in either branch then the greater the risk for injury.
Also, you should have been able to discern that when I stated that the marines were the "army's amphibious division" was in jest by my use of a smiley next to the statement. Again, the common cross service mantra of today is "one team one fight". this "rivalry" issue is bull shit, always has been. its the stuff of idiotic, teenage draftees, trying to feel better about their situation when they didn't want to be there to start with.
One cannot deny military history, the usmc as served time and again as an integral part of us army formations. when their sea based mission is not needed and no beach landings required, the manpower of the corps has been repeatedly folded into the Army.
another example-in ww1 several marine units were used to construct the us army's 2nd inf division. on 2 occasions during the war, the division was even commanded by marine generals (they were subordinate cdr's who-as a part of the army chain of command were next in line to command):
World War I
The 2nd Infantry Division was organized on 26 October 1917, at Bourmont, Haute Marne, France. At the time of its activation, the Indianhead Division was composed of existing Army and Marine units of the American Expeditionary Forces which were the 3rd Infantry Brigade, which was a normal Organic Brigade which included the 9th Infantry Regiment; 23rd Infantry Regiment; and the 4th Marine Brigade, which consisted of the 5th Marine Regiment and the 6th Marine Regiment, a battalion of Field Artillery, and various supporting units.
Twice during "The Great War" the division was commanded by Marine Corps generals, Brigadier General Charles A. Doyen and Major General John A. Lejeune, marking the only times in U.S. Military history when Marine Corps officers commanded an Army division. Major General John A. Lejeune, was nicknamed "The Old Indian," he had led the Division in numerous important engagements, including St. Mihiel, Mont Blanc Ridge, Champagnet, and the Meuse-Argonne. He later went on to become the Commandant of the Marine Corps.
from-- http://www.2id.korea.army.mil/history/
IMO- I think we should restructure the whole DoD where there is just one branch-say "the american forces" or whatever. it could then be subgrouped into air force, navy, marine and army units. it would save a hell of a lot of money and cut out a lot of duplicates in the officer ranks.
And "camp rhino" was secured by the 75th ranger regiment so the 15th MEU would have a secure place to fly into-period.
If the Marines lead the way everywhere all the time then why are there no Marines assigned to Europe (other then the security of Naval Bases and at Embassies)? Why no Marines in S Korea? In the Korean War, the first Americans to go in was the Army's 24th Infantry Division. The 82nd Airborne were the first Americans to land in Saudi Arabia in 1990. The most impactful mission the Marines had in Desert Storm were as a diversion "faking" a beach landing in Kuwait.
as to your comment: "But the Army is a separate branch, and is the largest military branch. There is no protocol which could allow the Army to command the Marines under any circumstances."
The command of the Marines in the Korean War:
"MacArthur activated X Corps under General Almond to land at Inchon in Operation CHROMITE. X Corps comprised 70,000 troops of the 1st Marine Division, and the 7th Army division (augmented by 8,600 Korean troops). Almond led 25,000 Marines and soldiers to a successful landing on 15 September 1950; casualties were 200, with 21 killed. Inchon was immediately hailed as one of the most brilliant and decisive tactical moves in military history as X Corps rolled east over the few defenders and threatening to trap the main North Korean army. MacArthur quickly recaptured Seoul. The North Koreans, almost cut off, raced north; about 25,000 to 30,000 made it back. [13]" (from "A history of the Korean War and the Operations of the Eighth United States Army)"
The Marines are not a force that can sustain itself for any protracted amount of time without a huge amount of support from the Army and the Air Force. Additionally, the USMC has neither the size nor the organization needed to command and control an entire theatre operation on its own. They must coordinate with the major Army component for anything from planning for offensive and defensive actions, clearances to use a road for convoy, airspace and artillery fire coordination and logistics.
During the 2003 Iraq war, the 1 Marines were under the operational control of the US Army's V Corp. All forces were under the supreme command of Gen Tommy Franks and the US Army's Central Command
here is an official history : http://www.history.army.mil/html/books/059/59-3-1/CMH_59-3-1.pdf
the only time in Iraq that the Marines were in Command of an area under their own General was in Al-Anbar province and known as "Multi National Division-West". This command though still relied on Army Logistics and Air Support particularly for MEDEVAC purposes.
As far as protocol--rank is rank, regardless of branch. From AIT, (marine artillery surveyors and a whole ass load of other jobs attend Army schools) where the Marines in our class fell into our morning accountability and PT formations (and yes, they were required to do PT with us, I was there-saw it whether you like it or not) and were marched to class with us by our "tac sgts (before they put Drills back into AIT)". To CALFEX's (combined arms live fire exercises) where Marine forward observers called in targets based on an Army officer's direction and then their calls for fire were processed and calculated by an Army Fire Direction Center (18th Airborne Corps "LiveEx" at Ft Stewart GA, 1989-again I was there). Or just the ability of an Army SGT telling a Marine Corporal to button his blouse in the PX parking lot (or a MARINE Sgt telling a soldier the same) rank is rank regardless of the branch or even nationality of the service.
The MARINE attitude of supposedly being 'better' then the other services is exactly what is used by army recruiters to deconstruct the Marine's pitch. For example; how can they be better when they make you pay for your initial issue of clothing? All of the other services issue for free the initial basic training "bag of uniforms". How are they better when they accrue your pay and you receive no pay until after you complete training? The other services pay by direct deposit after the first 2 weeks of enlistment. If a Marine recruit is married or has bills to pay, they all have to wait until the training is over. How many families will go hungry or a house lost or car repossessed because one chose to join a service who does not pay until after at least, 4 months of service? All the marines promise at enlistment is that you will be a marine, any specific job you may want is "listed" on the contract 'wish list' but there is no guarantee that training will ever be received. The Army and Navy guarantee the job selected by the recruit as an integral part of the enlistment contract.
Marine recruiters knew the faults of their recruiting mission; they sucked in the high schools and colleges at recruiting. We did very good, so the MARINE recr's would go in to a school act the fool in the hopes that the schools admin would kick out all of the services. What kind of professionalism is that?
Look ,I don't want to have a high schooler's argument either. But you have taken what I initially said; that you were only in for one enlistment-as a personal affront, In actuality I was only referencing your time in service as a comparison to mine and to display that the longer one is in either branch then the greater the risk for injury.
Also, you should have been able to discern that when I stated that the marines were the "army's amphibious division" was in jest by my use of a smiley next to the statement. Again, the common cross service mantra of today is "one team one fight". this "rivalry" issue is bull shit, always has been. its the stuff of idiotic, teenage draftees, trying to feel better about their situation when they didn't want to be there to start with.
One cannot deny military history, the usmc as served time and again as an integral part of us army formations. when their sea based mission is not needed and no beach landings required, the manpower of the corps has been repeatedly folded into the Army.
another example-in ww1 several marine units were used to construct the us army's 2nd inf division. on 2 occasions during the war, the division was even commanded by marine generals (they were subordinate cdr's who-as a part of the army chain of command were next in line to command):
World War I
The 2nd Infantry Division was organized on 26 October 1917, at Bourmont, Haute Marne, France. At the time of its activation, the Indianhead Division was composed of existing Army and Marine units of the American Expeditionary Forces which were the 3rd Infantry Brigade, which was a normal Organic Brigade which included the 9th Infantry Regiment; 23rd Infantry Regiment; and the 4th Marine Brigade, which consisted of the 5th Marine Regiment and the 6th Marine Regiment, a battalion of Field Artillery, and various supporting units.
Twice during "The Great War" the division was commanded by Marine Corps generals, Brigadier General Charles A. Doyen and Major General John A. Lejeune, marking the only times in U.S. Military history when Marine Corps officers commanded an Army division. Major General John A. Lejeune, was nicknamed "The Old Indian," he had led the Division in numerous important engagements, including St. Mihiel, Mont Blanc Ridge, Champagnet, and the Meuse-Argonne. He later went on to become the Commandant of the Marine Corps.
from-- http://www.2id.korea.army.mil/history/
IMO- I think we should restructure the whole DoD where there is just one branch-say "the american forces" or whatever. it could then be subgrouped into air force, navy, marine and army units. it would save a hell of a lot of money and cut out a lot of duplicates in the officer ranks.
At the end of this, you have a quart of pure, creamy almond milk. You can omit the vanilla and Splenda, but if you want the taste and texture you have been getting in the store bought almond milk, you will want to add it. It is not overwhelming, and is a dead ringer for Diamond Pure Almond Milk except more pure and a bit creamier. 
