William Shatner to appear in Star Trek 3 (2016)

[Bluce Ree]

I agree with you regarding the context. But my issue is not with expressing appropriate HUMAN emotions, my issue is with what passes for a "Vulcan" in JJ's Trek universe. Do you remember that Spock has a brother? His brother Sybok is emotionally driven. He smiles and laughs and is most illogical. But he is still Vulcan, having found Logic and rejected it. This NuSpock has NEVER been truly logical. His lines allow him to play on Spock Prime's legacy from time to time by saying that this or that is illogical, but then that is destroyed every time he hooks up with Uhura or argues with her. And speaking of Uhura, do you think she is also acceptable? I dont. I see her as being now on the level of Yeoman Rand on TOS. The hottie on the Bridge who basically is fleshy furniture, and from time to time she gets lines or something to do (usually to respond to the needs of her boyfriend Spock). Even her presence on the Enterprise is based in that for NuTrek. She could have been a Communications officer on the farragut, but Spock isnt on the Farragut, is he?

JJ does not get to remake Vulcans. I totally get the context of the emotional outbursts of NuSpock, but it is still inexcusable when considering him with Uhura and the other stuff he has done in NuTrek. Unlike the vague definitions of aliens in say...Star wars, Spock is a fully fleshed out character and he has a personality that befits Vulcans throughout Trek (pre Abrams). Gene did not like the grinning, smiley and expressive Spock of Season 1 of Star Trek. He stepped in and personally polished Spock with Nimoy until he got it right for Season 2 and beyond. The movie followed that up with the female Vulcan in Star Trek the Motion Picture, and again in the other TOS movies. Even Kirstey Alley got coached by Gene, and she had a very hard time with it.

You are trying to ge me to accept a Spock created by JJ Abrams and accept him as Vulcan when he just does not fit the bill. He is a good character, but he isnt Vulcan in the sense of what Vulcans are (as defined by Gene Roddenberry and adhered to by later writers). Tuvok's Vulcan demeanor is perfect. As perfect as Spock, and perhaps even more logical since he is 100% Vulcan.

I'm not trying to get you to accept Spock created by Abrams. I'm saying he's not this emotionally unstable crybaby hothead manic depressive that you're making him out to be. The moments where he lost his composure in Trek 2009 were attributable to witnessing and enduring the extinction of his homeworld, his people and his mother all at once.

Spock and Uhura arguing was more like Uhura arguing and Spock being arrogant, which is exactly what Vulcans are. No, he's not Spock Prime. He's not Nimoy's Spock and never will be. IMO, though, he's an acceptable balance between his Vulcan and Human side.

Uhura was always eye-candy. She rarely had lines beyond "incoming subspace communication from Starfleet". This Uhura is too hot-blooded Latina to play Nichols character but the times also call for a different kind of woman at the forefront and not the mild-mannered, quiet, subdued female crew member of the 60s in a mini skirt.

That being said, I will say again that I dislike Abrams creation as a whole but some of the individual parts are not that bad.

 

[shavedape]

Really, dude? When he was a kid struggling with his human half? Come on, man,



That was covered by my mention of the destruction of Vulcan. Elaborating on that point by detailing it out doesn't increase the quantity I implied.



Watching his home planet be obliterated, his mother swallowed by the collapsing planet and his race brought to near extinction all at once would definitely tug the strings of emotional control for even pure Vulcans, let alone one who's half human.

You're trying to define these people as androids, which they're not. What they went through is possibly the most traumatic event any race of beings can experience. There is no way that even Vulcans would simply raise their brow in serene calmness and say, "Indeed" while their entire race is being sent into oblivion right before their eyes.



Different timeline.



Gene's Spock was always defined as a half-human Vulcan struggling with his human side, including emotions. Sure, Quinto's Spock may be a bit exaggerated, but I don't see it as a complete miss.

I don't think OM1 is arguing that nuSpock is a complete miss. I think his complaint, and mine, is that nuSpock is, as you've said, exaggerated and dumbed down to fit the teen demographic that is crapping up movies and shows nowadays. There's nothing wrong with showing Spock wrestling with his human side but it doesn't have to be so turgidly presented.

 

[Bluce Ree]

I don't think OM1 is arguing that nuSpock is a complete miss. I think his complaint, and mine, is that nuSpock is, as you've said, exaggerated and dumbed down to fit the teen demographic that is crapping up movies and shows nowadays. There's nothing wrong with showing Spock wrestling with his human side but it doesn't have to be so turgidly presented.

Aside from 2009 where he was definitely taxed to his limits by all the events surrounding him and his existence, I don't really see his struggle being paraded to that point in the sequel. Sure, they have him scream "Khaaaaaan!" for a guy who died that he barely knew and was not exactly long-time friends with and his "argument" with Uhura, which was more of her bitching and him being arrogant and emotionless, typical Vulcan.

Ok, his relationship with Uhura is contrived, I'll give you that, showing more "passion" that a Vulcan normally would, even for a half-human one. These, however, are few.

 

[shavedape]

Aside from 2009 where he was definitely taxed to his limits by all the events surrounding him and his existence, I don't really see his struggle being paraded to that point in the sequel. Sure, they have him scream "Khaaaaaan!" for a guy who died that he barely knew and was not exactly long-time friends with and his "argument" with Uhura, which was more of her bitching and him being arrogant and emotionless, typical Vulcan.

Ok, his relationship with Uhura is contrived, I'll give you that, showing more "passion" that a Vulcan normally would, even for a half-human one. These, however, are few.

That's a part of the issue I have with nuSpock I admit. The whole relationship with Uhura was a real WTF? moment that was never fully explained. As it is I don't have a problem with Spock in a relationship but for that to happen it needs to be handled and explained really well because he's an exceptional character with exceptional traits. They didn't do that though. They just shoved this high school romance in our faces which basically told us that nuSpock was not much different than the rest of the crew. He lost some of his special-ness due to that as he became nothing more than another human character at that point. (A human with a stick up his butt.)

Granted, due to time constraints within a movie they didn't have a lot of time to show us the background on the Spock/Uhura relationship. But they should have showed us something of the development of it. Either that or they should have toned it down and just hinted at a possible past romantic relationship. That would have worked better in the limited context they were working with.

And truthfully I don't have a problem with nuSpock losing his shit when Vulcan was destroyed. That was actually a moment when he should have been emotional and distraught. But lovey dovey kissy face high school sweet hearts with Uhura? Yeah, not so much.

 

[Bluce Ree]

That's a part of the issue I have with nuSpock I admit. The whole relationship with Uhura was a real WTF? moment that was never fully explained.

It was not something new or pulled from thin air.

http://www.trektoday.com/content/2010/10/nichols-on-spock-uhura/

As it is I don't have a problem with Spock in a relationship but for that to happen it needs to be handled and explained really well because he's an exceptional character with exceptional traits. They didn't do that though. They just shoved this high school romance in our faces which basically told us that nuSpock was not much different than the rest of the crew. He lost some of his special-ness due to that as he became nothing more than another human character at that point. (A human with a stick up his butt.)

Granted, due to time constraints within a movie they didn't have a lot of time to show us the background on the Spock/Uhura relationship. But they should have showed us something of the development of it. Either that or they should have toned it down and just hinted at a possible past romantic relationship. That would have worked better in the limited context they were working with.

And truthfully I don't have a problem with nuSpock losing his shit when Vulcan was destroyed. That was actually a moment when he should have been emotional and distraught. But lovey dovey kissy face high school sweet hearts with Uhura? Yeah, not so much.

I agree with you that they overplay the whole relationship but OM1's take is that he is a completely-out-of-control emotional wreck.

On the other hand, how did Sarek end up with his human mother and, later on, his once-again human step mother? There would have to be some give and take for that to work at all. No human can marry a completely emotionless totem pole and no Vulcan can survive a complete emotional roller coaster of a spouse. Probably the give and take happens more in private.

 

[shavedape]

It was not something new or pulled from thin air.

http://www.trektoday.com/content/2010/10/nichols-on-spock-uhura/

The "relationship" that Nichols is referencing was never explicit in TOS. Also, she admits that a lot of that was her interpretation of the characters. Conversely, the movie explicitly shows Uhura and Spock in a romantic relationship, so in that way it was new.

I agree with you that they overplay the whole relationship but OM1's take is that he is a completely-out-of-control emotional wreck.

On the other hand, how did Sarek end up with his human mother and, later on, his once-again human step mother? There would have to be some give and take for that to work at all. No human can marry a completely emotionless totem pole and no Vulcan can survive a complete emotional roller coaster of a spouse. Probably the give and take happens more in private.

You bring up a good point about Sarek. Unfortunately his motivations, emotional and otherwise, weren't really explored in the nuTrek series so far. Then again I don't expect them to do much examination of that because it would interfere with all the teen angst running loose on dah Entah-prize, yo!

 

[Bluce Ree]

The "relationship" that Nichols is referencing was never explicit in TOS. Also, she admits that a lot of that was her interpretation of the characters. Conversely, the movie explicitly shows Uhura and Spock in a romantic relationship, so in that way it was new.

I never implied it existed. However, the "idea" is nothing new. It has been speculated over the years that there was or was-to-be something between Spock and Uhura. The first interracial kiss that took place between Kirk and Uhura was originally scripted to be Spock and Uhura then was subsequently changed.

http://www.themarysue.com/uhura-spock-kirk-kiss/

"[She] told The Vancouver Sun she was rehearsing her lip-lock withLeonard Nimoy (a.k.a. the Vulcan, Mr. Spock) when William Shatner (a.k.a. interstellar stud, Captain Kirk) saw the smooch. “Bill Shatner saw what was going on and he said, ‘Woah, woah, woah. If anybody is gonna get to kiss Lieutenant Uhura it’s gonna be me.’ And he had the whole thing changed so the first interracial kiss was with Lieutenant Uhura and Captain Kirk.”

You bring up a good point about Sarek. Unfortunately his motivations, emotional and otherwise, weren't really explored in the nuTrek series so far. Then again I don't expect them to do much examination of that because it would interfere with all the teen angst running loose on dah Entah-prize, yo!

LOL!

 

[shavedape]

I never implied it existed. However, the "idea" is nothing new. It has been speculated over the years that there was or was-to-be something between Spock and Uhura. The first interracial kiss that took place between Kirk and Uhura was originally scripted to be Spock and Uhura then was subsequently changed.

And that's kind of how it should have stayed with the nuTrek characters. I'm not saying they had to be prim and proper, but it would have been cool to just hint at it in the first movie and then maybe explore it more in the second. Less is more as they say and for the fans it would have been fun. Unfortunately they had to shove it in our faces right away and that took away the mystery and turned it into an episode of The Vampire Diaries.

*And Shatner was (is?) an egotistical A-hole from what I gather. The stories about how he demanded the lion's share of the attention are shocking.

 

[Bluce Ree]

And that's kind of how it should have stayed with the nuTrek characters. I'm not saying they had to be prim and proper, but it would have been cool to just hint at it in the first movie and then maybe explore it more in the second. Less is more as they say and for the fans it would have been fun. Unfortunately they had to shove it in our faces right away and that took away the mystery and turned it into an episode of The Vampire Diaries.

If they had taken their time to build to that, it would probably have gone smoother. I agree that it was shoved into our faces from the get-go. I think they tried to shove far too much into the first movie in general.

*And Shatner was (is?) an egotistical A-hole from what I gather. The stories about how he demanded the lion's share of the attention are shocking.

Yep, and if it wasn't for him, we'd have had Spock & Uhura hook up 47 years ago.