William Shatner to appear in Star Trek 3 (2016)

[Overmind One]

The casting for nuST is good with the exception of Chekov. Anton Yelchin was completely miscast in the role in my opinion.

He looks like the actor from the episode "Charlie" in TOS. . I totally agree. He was miscast horribly. And although NuSpock is angsty and emotional and not at all logical, he has chemistry with Chris Pine as Kirk.

 

[Bluce Ree]

He looks like the actor from the episode "Charlie" in TOS. . I totally agree. He was miscast horribly. And although NuSpock is angsty and emotional and not at all logical, he has chemistry with Chris Pine as Kirk.

I don't find Spock to be all that angsty and emotional and completely illogical.

 

[shavedape]

The NuTrek CAST is awesome. I think they picked a shiny new and great ensemble cast to replace the originals. If there is a way to keep that and just sorta "dump" the universe they are in right now, we would have some awesome movies worthy of carrying the Trek torch into the future generations as all the Trek series and movies have done up till now. NuTrek is a flash in the pan. How do you work transwarp beaming into the future of this NuUniverse? Kahn took out Klingon birds of prey with a hand weapon. . And of course, Kirk dies and is brought back to life by magic tribble blood.

If there is a way to divorce this cast from the Abrams disaster of a Trek universe, the future of Trek would be great. Imagine for a minute, this new cast in The Wrath of Kahn movie.

This is why I've always said that they should have done completely new stories with the new cast. There is absolutely no need to rehash old stories like TWoK. Give us some new shit, please! :jaded:

 

[Overmind One]

I don't find Spock to be all that angsty and emotional and completely illogical.

Really man? He is banging Uhura. What's Pon Farr? He smirks too much. He is banging Uhura....

 

[Bluce Ree]

Really man? He is banging Uhura. What's Pon Farr? He smirks too much. He is banging Uhura....

He's 1/2 human. He's bound to have a libido creep in now and then. Also, his father was banging Winona Ryder.

 

[Overmind One]

He's 1/2 human. He's bound to have a libido creep in now and then. Also, his father was banging Winona Ryder.

But he is not Spock. Spock is not the character Quinto is playing. NuSpock is not even a real Vulcan. The Vulcans are defined by Logic and this Spock still plays on it from time to time but he is a complete emotional wreck. I have seen more emotions from him than I have from Chekhov, Sulu or even Uhura. Vulcans experience Pon Farr every seven years. THAT is Vulcan libido creep. The relationship in NuTrek cheapens Uhura. All the other characters are tasked to a skill, but Uhura is just "Spocks girlfriend". And she is bitchy. So is he. Its just wrong to me.

 

[Bluce Ree]

But he is not Spock. Spock is not the character Quinto is playing. NuSpock is not even a real Vulcan. The Vulcans are defined by Logic and this Spock still plays on it from time to time but he is a complete emotional wreck.

We've never seen Spock this early in his career and so young.

I have seen more emotions from him than I have from Chekhov, Sulu or even Uhura.

We saw him break down when Vulcan was destroyed and we've also seen TOS Spock get angry and violent on more than one occasion. The second time he displayed emotion was when Kirk died. I don't recall any other major, or even minor, sequences of full blown emotion.

Vulcans experience Pon Farr every seven years. THAT is Vulcan libido creep.

*sigh*

He's 1/2 human.

The relationship in NuTrek cheapens Uhura. All the other characters are tasked to a skill, but Uhura is just "Spocks girlfriend". And she is bitchy. So is he. Its just wrong to me.

I agree about Uhura but Spock came off more as arrogant than bitchy in the scene where they argue, which is typical Vulcan. I didn't say the characters were written perfectly, just that they were well chosen.

 

[Overmind One]

We've never seen Spock this early in his career and so young.

We saw him break down when Vulcan was destroyed and we've also seen TOS Spock get angry and violent on more than one occasion. The second time he displayed emotion was when Kirk died. I don't recall any other major, or even minor, sequences of full blown emotion.

No?


Then there was when Vulcan was destroyed, then again he lost his mother, again when he jumped on Kirk and tried to strangle him to death, then again when he was talking to his father in the transporter room, and again in the turbolift with Uhura, and again when he wanted revenge on Nero, and again when Kirk died...many smirks throughout.

Im going by Gene Roddenberry's very specific description of Vulcans and Spock in particular. Out of all the characters in the show, only Spock, (the Doctor), Sulu, Scotty and another character which never materialized (Number One who was supposed to be played by Majel Barrett), were finalized before production. There was a different Captain, a different Doctor, and Nichelle Nichols got a new character named Uhura because Gene was banging her before he married Majel Barrett. Having said that, YES Spock is 1/2 human, but that was always Spock's demon to conquer. His character is in conflict and only the discipline of Logic helped him to forge an integrated personality. Spock is not a boyfriend. Spock does not grit his teeth or have tantrums. There is only one Spock to measure all others by, and that is Roddenberry's Spock. Nimoy took a whole year to get it right and to Gene's approval. Gene shaped every Vulcan character himself before he died. JJ does not get to remake Vulcans. Longtime Star Trek fans know Vulcans, and Quinto is not one, despite his pointed ears.

*sigh*

He's 1/2 human.

*sigh* he always has been. What he hasn’t been is emotional and hooked up with a girlfriend who happens to be the Communications Officer of the Enterprise where he serves as First Officer.

I agree about Uhura but Spock came off more as arrogant than bitchy in the scene where they argue, which is typical Vulcan. I didn't say the characters were written perfectly, just that they were well chosen.

I think the actors were very well chosen. But the writers had no idea how to interpret the Klingons or the Romulans or the Vulcans or any of the aliens we have seen in NuTrek to date. One book would have helped them immensely: The Making of Star Trek by Stephen E Whitfield and Gene Roddenberry. I still have my vintage 1969 copy. That, along with Gene's own personal communication with the actors is what shaped the Star Trek aliens, with Vulcans known right from the start. He developed both the Klingons and the Romulans himself. So, as much as you like Quinto's Spock, he is the creation of JJ's crew, not a Vulcan as defined by Gene Roddenberry himself.

 

[Overmind One]

Is there an absolute favorite show you had as a kid Bluce? A show that you would never miss, and would rush home to make sure you caught it? I did, and that show was Star Trek. The original 1966 one, when it was still owned by Desilu and was broadcast as new episodes. I might have become a full blown Trekkie if my parents were more lenient. For me and millions of other deep Trek fans, Abram's movies are offensive to the spirit and creation that is Star Trek. It takes more than just casting it right. This great crew in a ruined universe makes for a sour brew that I dont care for. But to each his own!

 

[Bluce Ree]

No?

Really, dude? When he was a kid struggling with his human half? Come on, man,

Then there was when Vulcan was destroyed, then again he lost his mother, again when he jumped on Kirk and tried to strangle him to death, then again when he was talking to his father in the transporter room, and again in the turbolift with Uhura, and again when he wanted revenge on Nero, and again when Kirk died...many smirks throughout.

That was covered by my mention of the destruction of Vulcan. Elaborating on that point by detailing it out doesn't increase the quantity I implied.

Im going by Gene Roddenberry's very specific description of Vulcans and Spock in particular. Out of all the characters in the show, only Spock, (the Doctor), Sulu, Scotty and another character which never materialized (Number One who was supposed to be played by Majel Barrett), were finalized before production. There was a different Captain, a different Doctor, and Nichelle Nichols got a new character named Uhura because Gene was banging her before he married Majel Barrett. Having said that, YES Spock is 1/2 human, but that was always Spock's demon to conquer. His character is in conflict and only the discipline of Logic helped him to forge an integrated personality. Spock is not a boyfriend. Spock does not grit his teeth or have tantrums. There is only one Spock to measure all others by, and that is Roddenberry's Spock. Nimoy took a whole year to get it right and to Gene's approval. Gene shaped every Vulcan character himself before he died. JJ does not get to remake Vulcans. Longtime Star Trek fans know Vulcans, and Quinto is not one, despite his pointed ears.

Watching his home planet be obliterated, his mother swallowed by the collapsing planet and his race brought to near extinction all at once would definitely tug the strings of emotional control for even pure Vulcans, let alone one who's half human.

You're trying to define these people as androids, which they're not. What they went through is possibly the most traumatic event any race of beings can experience. There is no way that even Vulcans would simply raise their brow in serene calmness and say, "Indeed" while their entire race is being sent into oblivion right before their eyes.

*sigh* he always has been. What he hasn’t been is emotional and hooked up with a girlfriend who happens to be the Communications Officer of the Enterprise where he serves as First Officer.

Different timeline.

I think the actors were very well chosen. But the writers had no idea how to interpret the Klingons or the Romulans or the Vulcans or any of the aliens we have seen in NuTrek to date. One book would have helped them immensely: The Making of Star Trek by Stephen E Whitfield and Gene Roddenberry. I still have my vintage 1969 copy. That, along with Gene's own personal communication with the actors is what shaped the Star Trek aliens, with Vulcans known right from the start. He developed both the Klingons and the Romulans himself. So, as much as you like Qunto's Spock, he is the creation of JJ's crew, not a Vulcan as defined by Gene Roddenberry himself.

Gene's Spock was always defined as a half-human Vulcan struggling with his human side, including emotions. Sure, Quinto's Spock may be a bit exaggerated, but I don't see it as a complete miss.

 

[Joelist]

This is why I've always said that they should have done completely new stories with the new cast. There is absolutely no need to rehash old stories like TWoK. Give us some new shit, please! :jaded:

This problem has been around unfortunately. They have been basically retelling TWoK constantly in the films of late. Lest we forget Nemesis is a blatant copy of TWoK storywise also. Counting the Abrams films the last three films have all been revenge stories.

 

[Bluce Ree]

Is there an absolute favorite show you had as a kid Bluce? A show that you would never miss, and would rush home to make sure you caught it? I did, and that show was Star Trek. The original 1966 one, when it was still owned by Desilu and was broadcast as new episodes. I might have become a full blown Trekkie if my parents were more lenient. For me and millions of other deep Trek fans, Abram's movies are offensive to the spirit and creation that is Star Trek. It takes more than just casting it right. This great crew in a ruined universe makes for a sour brew that I dont care for. But to each his own!

I had two. Space: 1999 and Star Trek.

I agree that Abrams destroyed the franchise. I was actually quite vocal about it right here on GF.

 

[Joelist]

Lest we forget Vulcans are not supposed to be unable to emote even per traditional Trek canon. Remember historically they were EXTREMELY emotional and adopted the teaching of Surak to preserve themselves from self destruction because of those violent emotional outbursts. So a proper depiction of Vulcans is one of being CAPABLE of extremely intense emotions but keeping their emotions under tight control based on training and practice starting in childhood. Such a depiction is consistent with the whole of Trek canon. When we start viewing Vulcans as Somnambulistic we are missing the mark in my thinking.

With that said, is NuSpock a proper Vulcan? Yes and No. He does seem to exhibit the same conflict between logic and emotion we see in TOS, VOY and TNG. Where he doesn't make it to me is his logical moments don't "feel logical enough". When his control is on he should be very calm and spelling out things logically. In fact, I'm not sure we have heard NuSpock quote Vulcan philosophy yet which is odd - both Prime Spock and Tuvok did so with relative regularity.

 

[Overmind One]

Lest we forget Vulcans are not supposed to be unable to emote even per traditional Trek canon. Remember historically they were EXTREMELY emotional and adopted the teaching of Surak to preserve themselves from self destruction because of those violent emotional outbursts. So a proper depiction of Vulcans is one of being CAPABLE of extremely intense emotions but keeping their emotions under tight control based on training and practice starting in childhood. Such a depiction is consistent with the whole of Trek canon. When we start viewing Vulcans as Somnambulistic we are missing the mark in my thinking.

With that said, is NuSpock a proper Vulcan? Yes and No. He does seem to exhibit the same conflict between logic and emotion we see in TOS, VOY and TNG. Where he doesn't make it to me is his logical moments don't "feel logical enough". When his control is on he should be very calm and spelling out things logically. In fact, I'm not sure we have heard NuSpock quote Vulcan philosophy yet which is odd - both Prime Spock and Tuvok did so with relative regularity.

EXACTLY. The best Vulcans ever portrayed in Star Trek are: Spock, Sarek, Tuvok. The whole history of Vulcan had to do with suppressing emotion. Spock was particularly challenged by being half human. But if you recall, he was even emotionless when his father was dying and he refused to give him a transfusion which would save his life. He also was humiliated in Plato's Children when he was made to do things against his will. And the kicker is the fact that Spock Prime in NuTrek is not even the same as he is in real Trek.

No doubt about it, this NuSpock is more emotion and less Logic, and that is not really a good thing. His stoic logic is part of the balance between him and Kirk and McCoy.

 

[Bluce Ree]

But if you recall, he was even emotionless when his father was dying and he refused to give him a transfusion which would save his life.

Yeah, I can name a half dozen real-life humans who weren't moved by their fathers' deaths and/or illnesses. Spock and his father were not the best of friends, if you recall. Not the same as watching your mother and your entire civilization being swallowed up by a black hole at the center of your planet.

 

[Overmind One]

Yeah, I can name a half dozen real-life humans who weren't moved by their fathers' deaths and/or illnesses. Spock and his father were not the best of friends, if you recall. Not the same as watching your mother and your entire civilization being swallowed up by a black hole at the center of your planet.

I agree with you regarding the context. But my issue is not with expressing appropriate HUMAN emotions, my issue is with what passes for a "Vulcan" in JJ's Trek universe. Do you remember that Spock has a brother? His brother Sybok is emotionally driven. He smiles and laughs and is most illogical. But he is still Vulcan, having found Logic and rejected it. This NuSpock has NEVER been truly logical. His lines allow him to play on Spock Prime's legacy from time to time by saying that this or that is illogical, but then that is destroyed every time he hooks up with Uhura or argues with her. And speaking of Uhura, do you think she is also acceptable? I dont. I see her as being now on the level of Yeoman Rand on TOS. The hottie on the Bridge who basically is fleshy furniture, and from time to time she gets lines or something to do (usually to respond to the needs of her boyfriend Spock). Even her presence on the Enterprise is based in that for NuTrek. She could have been a Communications officer on the farragut, but Spock isnt on the Farragut, is he?

JJ does not get to remake Vulcans. I totally get the context of the emotional outbursts of NuSpock, but it is still inexcusable when considering him with Uhura and the other stuff he has done in NuTrek. Unlike the vague definitions of aliens in say...Star wars, Spock is a fully fleshed out character and he has a personality that befits Vulcans throughout Trek (pre Abrams). Gene did not like the grinning, smiley and expressive Spock of Season 1 of Star Trek. He stepped in and personally polished Spock with Nimoy until he got it right for Season 2 and beyond. The movie followed that up with the female Vulcan in Star Trek the Motion Picture, and again in the other TOS movies. Even Kirstey Alley got coached by Gene, and she had a very hard time with it.

You are trying to ge me to accept a Spock created by JJ Abrams and accept him as Vulcan when he just does not fit the bill. He is a good character, but he isnt Vulcan in the sense of what Vulcans are (as defined by Gene Roddenberry and adhered to by later writers). Tuvok's Vulcan demeanor is perfect. As perfect as Spock, and perhaps even more logical since he is 100% Vulcan.

 

[Overmind One]

...Where he doesn't make it to me is his logical moments don't "feel logical enough". When his control is on he should be very calm and spelling out things logically. In fact, I'm not sure we have heard NuSpock quote Vulcan philosophy yet which is odd - both Prime Spock and Tuvok did so with relative regularity.

In NuTrek, it isnt odd because the writers themselves do not have logic. They did throw transwarp beaming in there without realizing that it made starships obsolete, didnt they? They created Red Matter, and they came up with the screwy alternate timeline we are stuck with right now. How could they write logic for a Vulcan? There is nobody with vision on the NuTrek. Nobody like Gene Roddenberry to consult with. Even Ronald Moore knows what a real Vulcan is.

 

[Overmind One]

This problem has been around unfortunately. They have been basically retelling TWoK constantly in the films of late. Lest we forget Nemesis is a blatant copy of TWoK storywise also. Counting the Abrams films the last three films have all been revenge stories.

JJ Abrams is a very shallow writer/producer. He is NOT an intellectual by any stretch of meaning, and the depth of interest in science and the future is far beyond his understandings. One long look at his fimography verifies this statement, being completely devoid of thinking pieces.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0009190/

JJ is all about visuals and action. Compare Armageddon the film with Deep Impact. Both were released less than two months apart, and his Armageddon was chock full of dumb action and loud music and shallow characters, whilst Deep Impact was thoughtful and scientific. Both had basically the same premise, but JJ had to throw in a space shuttle dogfight? How the hell could he explain why shuttles were armed with defensive missiles? "Oh, I needed those to have the dogfight" would be the most honest answer. It was ridiculous.

 

[Joelist]

This isn't just an Abrams problem. Even the original set of films was doing it. Nemesis was a revenge story too. Plus several of the original film series had bad writing too (V, VI, Generations, Insurrection). TMP was decent and the apex of the films was II, III and IV. That was the only time they hit any consistency. Ironically, II, III and IV also had interconnected plots and formed a loose trilogy.

 

[Overmind One]

This isn't just an Abrams problem. Even the original set of films was doing it. Nemesis was a revenge story too. Plus several of the original film series had bad writing too (V, VI, Generations, Insurrection). TMP was decent and the apex of the films was II, III and IV. That was the only time they hit any consistency. Ironically, II, III and IV also had interconnected plots and formed a loose trilogy.

Star Trek V (The Final Frontier) had the problem of being William Shatner's guinea pig movie. Gene Roddenberry did not like the story or the character depictions in it. They had Uhura dancing in it like some Orion slave girl. And Star Trek VI (The Undiscovered Country) was originally conceived to be a prequel to a new series and was cast with younger actors playing the parts. But that was shelved. Generations was a "handoff" movie designed to pass the baton to the TNG crew. I am not sure what issue you had with Insurrection...I thought it was good. Did not like Nemesis. I thought Trek reached a pinnacle with TWoK for TOS and First Contact for TNG. I dont mentally connect any of the previous Trek films with the NuTrek films or cast.