The Science of Star Trek vs the Magic of Star Wars - the 10 Year Flame War!

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
Name one other show or movie prior to ST where transparent aluminum was mentioned. :)
D&D had a spell way back in 1978 called Glassee which made steel transparent, long before Scotty used Transparent Aluminum, does that count?
Or do "true geeks" just not cross the Sci fi/Fantasy gulf?
:D
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
Do you know how -easy- it is to tell when you don't read links?


Blah blah "you just don't get it", you are not a real fan blah blah crap.

Well, you really don't get it. :) Not everybody "gets" everything dude! I don't get programming or command line interface or car engines. But I am not going to argue with a car mechanic or a programmer and say that knowing how to write English or knowing what a carbeurator does means that I understand those two things.

No, actually I am reading what physicists are saying now.
And more blah blah you don't get it crap.

WHICH physicists? I like the ones at AIP which is a community of physicists and physics enthusiasts and in which I am a longtime member:

http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/magazine/physicstoday/news/10.1063/PT.4.2518

I am talking about the computing and storage power to hold -us- and transport us, like ST, which includes maintaining our brain and it's unique patterns.
ST transporter, it's magic :)

Its just not possible, it is not magic. Magic is passing a wand over something and chanting a spell and then making it disappear in sparkles of light. Pushing a button and trying to explain what is happening (even if it can't happen) is not the same as magic. If you see it the same, add that to the list of things you do not get. :)

err, no I did not.

Blah blah blah you just don't get it, again.
I need to find you a good gif for that.

Why is it so important for you to FORCE magic into science where it is not wanted and it does not belong?

Ho hum............

Hum ho!

Well yes, I could see how some of the civilizations would stump you.
As for the rest, just more blah blah you don't get it tripe, like most of this post.

I did not say stump. I said challenge. Very little stumps me except certain human behaviors. :icon_e_ugeek:
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
You mean like, any form of propulsion that could achieve a "warped space" effect is really a ST warp drive?
I did not set the criteria in this discussion dude, I am just going with the flow.
Nice try though :)

What's a "ST warp drive"? All "hyperspace/warp/FTL travel theory is based on the scientific principle of "warping" or "folding" local space which allows anything within the localized space to move faster than the "normal" space outside the warped area. Nobody is trying to claim that Star Trek is the only source of iut, but it was definitely the first to use it in storytelling, first to try and explain it, and first to update the theory by offering a possible means to generate enough power to warp space (the Warp Drive and the Warp Core and matter/antimatter reactors). Trek first was using ion power as it's idea for that power source, and later changed it to the matter/antimatter reactors.
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
D&D had a spell way back in 1978 called Glassee which made steel transparent, long before Scotty used Transparent Aluminum, does that count?
Or do "true geeks" just not cross the Sci fi/Fantasy gulf?
:D
When Scotty first used transparent aluminum, it did not exist and now it does. :) Does this Glassee spell work today? Will it ever work in the future? Science can turn water into ice or into steam or even into a plasma. A magic wand or a spell or the Force will never be able to do any of those things. That is the dichotomy between Star Trek and Star Wars.
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
Not really a good comparison. The "lightsabers" you're talking about are nothing but thick lasers. Just because it shoots a fat laser beam out of a flashlight-shaped thing doesn't make it a saber. By your criteria, any cylindrical object shooting a beam of light would technically be a "lightsaber". Nice try, though. :D

The beam in a lightsaber has a finite length and is actually not light but would have to be some sort of superheated plasma in order to do the things we see them doing in Star Wars. Science does not allow for the physics we see in them.
 

Bluce Ree

Tech Admin / Council Member
You mean like, any form of propulsion that could achieve a "warped space" effect is really a ST warp drive?

If I meant that, I would have said that, but I didn't. And, it's not a warped space *effect*, it's *actually* warping space.

I did not set the criteria in this discussion dude, I am just going with the flow.
Nice try though :)

You can call what you did here a nice try but not quite. You're pretty much defining your own flow right now. :icon_lol:
 

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
Well, you really don't get it. :) Not everybody "gets" everything dude! I don't get programming or command line interface or car engines. But I am not going to argue with a car mechanic or a programmer and say that knowing how to write English or knowing what a carbeurator does means that I understand those two things.
I "get" it fine.
Are you -seriously- telling me you don't know how a IC engine functions?

WHICH physicists? I like the ones at AIP which is a community of physicists and physics enthusiasts and in which I am a longtime member:
I was actually thinking of Lawrence Krauss for starters.
Is that a cooking show?
Its just not possible, it is not magic. Magic is passing a wand over something and chanting a spell and then making it disappear in sparkles of light. Pushing a button and trying to explain what is happening (even if it can't happen) is not the same as magic. If you see it the same, add that to the list of things you do not get. :)
I don't see them as the same.
Add that to the list of assumptions you make.

Why is it so important for you to FORCE magic into science where it is not wanted and it does not belong?
It's not.
There is yet another assumption.
Yeah, does not work the other way.
I did not say stump. I said challenge. Very little stumps me except certain human behaviors. :icon_e_ugeek:
I did not want to call you challenged, but if you prefer..............
 

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
What's a "ST warp drive"? All "hyperspace/warp/FTL travel theory is based on the scientific principle of "warping" or "folding" local space which allows anything within the localized space to move faster than the "normal" space outside the warped area.
Correct.
Nobody is trying to claim that Star Trek is the only source of iut, but it was definitely the first to use it in storytelling,
Incorrect.
first to try and explain it, and first to update the theory by offering a possible means to generate enough power to warp space (the Warp Drive and the Warp Core and matter/antimatter reactors). Trek first was using ion power as it's idea for that power source, and later changed it to the matter/antimatter reactors.
What it uses to explain it means nothing, it's pseudo science.
 

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
When Scotty first used transparent aluminum, it did not exist and now it does. :) Does this Glassee spell work today? Will it ever work in the future? Science can turn water into ice or into steam or even into a plasma. A magic wand or a spell or the Force will never be able to do any of those things. That is the dichotomy between Star Trek and Star Wars.
It's not the fact it is a "spell" OM, it is the -concept-.
It was posited that the notion of transparent Aluminium did not exist before Scotty using it in trek, that assumption is incorrect.
 

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
If I meant that, I would have said that, but I didn't. And, it's not a warped space *effect*, it's *actually* warping space.
And a fat laser could be a lightsabre, just not the ones we see in SW, which was the point I was making, and one you knew I was talking about.
You can call what you did here a nice try but not quite. You're pretty much defining your own flow right now. :icon_lol:
Nope, I am just treating the conversation with you -separate- to the one I am having with OM.
Should I treat them the same?
 

Bluce Ree

Tech Admin / Council Member
Concept dude, you know, like the 6M dollar man you brought up earlier, not reality.

Except one is in the context of science and the other is not. Magic can make anything invisible with or without a material required. Might as well point to the bible for tech inspirations if you're gonna take the convo into full silliness, honestly.
 

Bluce Ree

Tech Admin / Council Member
It's not the fact it is a "spell" OM, it is the -concept-.

There is no "concept" in magic. Wave a wand or cast a spell and *anything* is made invisible. Fruit is turned into animals, flying carpets, genie lamps that house powerful yet enslaved gods, etc. Now you're just busting balls so I'll let you have this topic all to yourself.
 

YJ02

Well Known GateFan
Corporations are going to become socialist entities like the Bureaus are in the US government. Capitalism cannot work without expanding and the peoples of the (today) Third World like South America, Africa and to a great degree...China, will not support and perpetuate the Capitalist system. The type of system I see in the Expanse is a trope to me. It assumes that the future will run on the values and principles which run today's society when today's society is giving way to something much more fair and balanced (socialism and communism). Thinking that a biased and unbalanced system like Capitalism is going to be perpetuated by those who have been oppressed by it is sorta naive. :) It's like assuming that slaves would voluntarily perpetuate the system which enslaves them.

but for your idea to work, the third world oppressed need to currently be on a path to some sort of power

and, ultimately, the immigration route (now changing the future demo's of Europe for example) will not work, because once that immigrant group spawns a 2nd generation, they will encourage them to follow in the paths of the former majority and their capitalistic ways

without some type of great military strength in the third world, they will never over power the first world nations of today
-one reason,we sell them our weapons ("our" meaning us, china,sweden,germany,france, russia,etc) but they are inferior to ours
example-the exported M1 tanks and APACHE helos DO not carry the same systems for targeting or the same armor that our versions do

we do nearly everything to make them inferior short of installing a Go'ald homing system!

-------------
IMO, the system shown in the expanse is pretty much following the path we our currently on

spacex and other private corps as well as brazil and india are only in space exploration for profit-not for the greater good of man's future

the current third world population are now and have long been "in training" for becoming the future "belters". that is, our exportation of our industrial system to the third world-where they gladly work for pennies on our labor dollars-has been the perfect training tool,a generational one, for the future space workers; the asteroid miners, the ice cutters, the support industry and society we see on Ceres in THE EXPANSE, all of those ppl are being acculturated to becoming a generational work force for the future

all of whom will gladly leave EARTH on the promise of greater opportunities-the "america dream" in space

the corporate world is now drooling over the plans they have for space exploitation-even though they may not personally see the profits, they are earning their huge salaries today by building the promise for investors of a wealthy future for their investments-also generational

do i agree with this? no. but I think it is the path of mankind. we have seen that "greed is good". Gordon Gecko as pro(f)phet for the future religion of 'Euro-dollar-yuanism' is a growing reality!

-----------------
the only thing THE EXPANSE gets wrong is the ethnic composition of those we see on ceres; it should be a blacker and browner one. a population of those Africans,south asians and south americans whose first space faring ancestors came from those areas and not Europe, America or North Asia

<<i am going to paste this into the EXPANSE thread as well so it doesn't derail the ST squee fest here :tickled_pink:
 

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
Except one is in the context of science and the other is not. Magic can make anything invisible with or without a material required. Might as well point to the bible for tech inspirations if you're gonna take the convo into full silliness, honestly.
Not true.
Magic in the vast majority of fantasy works -do- follow rules.
Besides, if someone managed to get inspired to create something tech based out of the Bible, I'd be shocked.
 

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
There is no "concept" in magic. Wave a wand or cast a spell and *anything* is made invisible. Fruit is turned into animals, flying carpets, genie lamps that house powerful yet enslaved gods, etc. Now you're just busting balls so I'll let you have this topic all to yourself.
Dude.
Isn't saying "you just don't get it" just another way to bust someones balls?
Sorry I am a fan of both main branches of Speculative Fiction.
 
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