The Last Ship - could've been worse

[shavedape]

Why? He also explained why - her presence messed up his ability to think clearly in the situation. How much time did all the interpersonal stuff take? Maybe 90 seconds. Did it serve the plot? Yes. He understood that he had to keep away from her to do his duty - and did so.

90 seconds of a soap opera is still 90 seconds of a soap opera. I didn't buy for one second that a professional soldier would lose focus during such an important moment. Blaming it on a love quandry was nothing but contrivance. The staff writer that came up with that nonsense should be forced to bob for apples in a tub of his own fetid urine.

Trust me on this JL, give them an inch and next thing you know we got us a magic baby that grows into an adult overnight.

 

[Overmind One]

90 seconds of a soap opera is still 90 seconds of a soap opera. I didn't buy for one second that a professional soldier would lose focus during such an important moment. Blaming it on a love quandry was nothing but contrivance. The staff writer that came up with that nonsense should be forced to bob for apples in a tub of his own fetid urine.

Trust me on this JL, give them an inch and next thing you know we got us a magic baby that grows into an adult overnight.

 

[Joelist]

Possibly. But on the other hand they have kept it to a minimum. And it is entirely believable that someone can have a momentary lapse like that especially in a situation not covered in their training.

Still, we keep an eye on things. But so far so good.

 

[YJ02]

TRUE. So why did she say she "qualified as Expert Marksman"? It IS a requirement in the Army and the Marines. I have never seen anybody in the Navy on the rifle range. But I believe the Seals get rifle and combat training.

Yes, marksmanship training "if their specialty calls for it" I am guessing being on a Destroyer is not one of those specialties except for any Master at Arms personnel onboard (like Army and Marine MP's)

I have fired an M16/M4 thousands of times and previous to going i nthe army fired 30/30's. .22's and .303's--An M16/M4 is nothing like any of them except they are all rifles

an M16/4 has virtually no recoil compared to hunting rifles, additionally, most of your hunting rifles have no 'pistol grip' hand hold like the M16/M4 has

hunting skills DO NOT transfer between the two--In fact, most ppl who have had a lot of hunting experience are usually the ones who fail marksmanship week in basic at least once.

On seals-that few ppl consider and why any Marine or Soldier is far, far ahead of any seal candidate before they get to seal trng as far as combat trng and weapons trng go, is that ALL Marines and Soldiers undergo combat trng and weapons training in basic/boot regardless of MOS. Sailors only learn combat and weapons trng in their 'Rate' (MOS) school only of their job requires it (like being a master at arms)

 

[Overmind One]

http://www.navyadvancement.com/navy-marksmanship/

Naval personnel can also opt to pursue marksman qualifications with chain of command permission or if their specialty calls for it.

Yes, marksmanship training "if their specialty calls for it" I am guessing being on a Destroyer is not one of those specialties except for any Master at Arms personnel onboard (like Army and Marine MP's)

I have fired an M16/M4 thousands of times and previous to going i nthe army fired 30/30's. .22's and .303's--An M16/M4 is nothing like any of them except they are all rifles

an M16/4 has virtually no recoil compared to hunting rifles, additionally, most of your hunting rifles have no 'pistol grip' hand hold like the M16/M4 has

hunting skills DO NOT transfer between the two--In fact, most ppl who have had a lot of hunting experience are usually the ones who fail marksmanship week in basic at least once.

On seals-that few ppl consider and why any Marine or Soldier is far, far ahead of any seal candidate before they get to seal trng as far as combat trng and weapons trng go, is that ALL Marines and Soldiers undergo combat trng and weapons training in basic/boot regardless of MOS. Sailors only learn combat and weapons trng in their 'Rate' (MOS) school only of their job requires it (like being a master at arms)

Bolded - precisely. Soldiers and Marines have more real world training than any civilian police cadet, and most senior police officers.

My issue weapon was an M205 (M16 with grenade launcher). I fired it hundreds of times, and also got to use the grenade launcher on exercises. Each squad had two Marines who had that weapon. I got lucky! But it was harder to take apart and put together in 3 minutes per regulation. I agree, not much recoil. Not much sound either. I fired the M4 at Edson Range, hated it. How could soldiers carry that weapon around in the battlefield and keep it clean? Not at all surprised it was phased out. I have never fired a hunting rifle. But I have fired (and owned) a variety of handguns. The military issue .45 was standard issue for officer sidearms, but I believe the latest issue weapon for handguns is a 9mm, right? As of now, I have a Glock 19.

Question. You served in the military for MUCH longer than I did. Did you still have to do your annual PT and firing range qualifications?

 

[Joelist]

The military is actually currently phasing in the M4A1 and recently placed an order for 180,000 new weapons to supplement the existing weapons being upgraded to the M4A1 standard. I fired one just a couple of weeks ago and it is a sweet weapon.

Pistol wise the Marines recently contracted with Colt for new .45 pistols that are a significant update of the M1911 (M45 MEUSOC) as the standard sidearm for MEUs and judging by the number on order potentially the whole Corps.

 

[Overmind One]

The military is actually currently phasing in the M4A1 and recently placed an order for 180,000 new weapons to supplement the existing weapons being upgraded to the M4A1 standard. I fired one just a couple of weeks ago and it is a sweet weapon.

Pistol wise the Marines recently contracted with Colt for new .45 pistols that are a significant update of the M1911 (M45 MEUSOC) as the standard sidearm for MEUs and judging by the number on order potentially the whole Corps.

I typoed the weapon I hated. It was the M1, not the M4A1 (M16). The M1 was phased out of the USMC, but I got a chance to fire one and it was heavy and clunky. I cant believe it was used in combat! The plastic guards that detach from the barrel of the M16 have "Mattel" stamped on them on the inside.

 

[YJ02]

Bolded - precisely. Soldiers and Marines have more real world training than any civilian police cadet, and most senior police officers.

My issue weapon was an M205 (M16 with grenade launcher). I fired it hundreds of times, and also got to use the grenade launcher on exercises. Each squad had two Marines who had that weapon. I got lucky! But it was harder to take apart and put together in 3 minutes per regulation. I agree, not much recoil. Not much sound either. I fired the M4 at Edson Range, hated it. How could soldiers carry that weapon around in the battlefield and keep it clean? Not at all surprised it was phased out. I have never fired a hunting rifle. But I have fired (and owned) a variety of handguns. The military issue .45 was standard issue for officer sidearms, but I believe the latest issue weapon for handguns is a 9mm, right? As of now, I have a Glock 19.

Question. You served in the military for MUCH longer than I did. Did you still have to do your annual PT and firing range qualifications?

"M205" :jaded: its M203 (But like that woman said in the movie "3, 5 whatever it takes"

Yes, they are a pain to have to carry around (especially for a change of command/parade-the grenade tube doesn't allow you to keep your weapon at sling arms correctly) but they are fun to fire-especially the big orange powdered paint rounds==other than that they are dust magnets for cleaning purposes

The military went to the beretta (made in US under license) 9mm. I never fired it-never would have encountered the need- but I did run several ranges for it as the NCOIC. Some Officers, MP's and some medics carry 9mm's, but once they went to the range they didn't like it, especially if they had ever fired the M1911 before.

I have read that the military is going back to a new styled .45 though

And yes, so far as I know, every soldier still does a PT test every 6 months and most units do a "not for record" test in between, Additionally, at every NCO development course, AIT and Airborne and Air Assault schools one must take a PT test for record to enter the course and/or graduate.

Weapons qual is at a min once a yr though combat units- (Infantry, Combat Engineers) must qual twice a yr. Instead of on a personal assigned weapon, armor, artillery and air attack units qualify as a crew on their major weapons system (M1 tank, TOW missile, Howitzer, Apache, etc). Soldiers of any unit can also expect to attend weapon's familiarization ranges during the course of a fiscal yr on weapons like the SAW, M60/M240 mg, M203, hand grenade, etc ONLY IF their is sufficient trng ammo for that yr based on what THE CONGRESS has allocated.

 

[Overmind One]

"M205" :jaded: its M203 (But like that woman said in the movie "3, 5 whatever it takes"

Yes, they are a pain to have to carry around (especially for a change of command/parade-the grenade tube doesn't allow you to keep your weapon at sling arms correctly) but they are fun to fire-especially the big orange powdered paint rounds==other than that they are dust magnets for cleaning purposes

The military went to the beretta (made in US under license) 9mm. I never fired it-never would have encountered the need- but I did run several ranges for it as the NCOIC. Some Officers, MP's and some medics carry 9mm's, but once they went to the range they didn't like it, especially if they had ever fired the M1911 before.

I have read that the military is going back to a new styled .45 though

And yes, so far as I know, every soldier still does a PT test every 6 months and most units do a "not for record" test in between, Additionally, at every NCO development course, AIT and Airborne and Air Assault schools one must take a PT test for record to enter the course and/or graduate.

Weapons qual is at a min once a yr though combat units- (Infantry, Combat Engineers) must qual twice a yr. Instead of on a personal assigned weapon, armor, artillery and air attack units qualify as a crew on their major weapons system (M1 tank, TOW missile, Howitzer, Apache, etc). Soldiers of any unit can also expect to attend weapon's familiarization ranges during the course of a fiscal yr on weapons like the SAW, M60/M240 mg, M203, hand grenade, etc ONLY IF their is sufficient trng ammo for that yr based on what THE CONGRESS has allocated.

M203 it was. Yes. I had that thing and got NO break for having to also disassemble the grenade launcher (20 whole seconds!). I loved that sound it made when firing the grenade. POP! I fired explosive grenades, smoke grenades and a phosphorous grenade or two from that thing over the course of 4 years. . But on the rifle range at quals, it was actually more balanced to me than the standard M16. I used to try and get away with stuffing a sock into the grenade barrel when in the field to keep sand out of it, but I would get busted.

From 1980-1984, only the .45 was used by officers as an issued weapon. But shortly after leaving in 1984, they started talking about using 9mm. Police weapons used to be the .38 and the .45, but they changed to the 9mm around the same time.

 

[Joelist]

I gather the USMC decision came in part from MEU members getting M1911s with their own money and having the machine shops (on the amphibious warfare ships for example) help them with keeping the weapons up. That is how disillusioned they got with the lack of stopping power in the Beretta - accuracy is not a replacement for stopping power in a close quarters weapon.

Anyway, Colt then showed off the .45 MEUSOC which was actually designed in part from feedback from these same disillusioned personnel, and a few shifts here and there and the accuracy was much better than the old M1911 and they even got the magazine capacity up to 9 rounds. The rest is history.

 

[Joelist]

By the way, three episodes in and they have held a bit over 90% of their premiere audience. Not bad at all.

 

[Overmind One]

By the way, three episodes in and they have held a bit over 90% of their premiere audience. Not bad at all.

The reason for that is because it is a GOOD SHOW! It has wide appeal on many levels, without dipping to the lowest denominator (sex, nudity and violence). Any of that which may show up will most likely be done in context, and will not dominate the show. The "couple" that was shown in eps 1 and 2 are not dominating the show at all. In fact, nothing is dominating the show except finding the cure for the virus. The women in this are strong and capable and not props. There is a lot of diversity in the cast and in the xtras. Nobody on the cast is dragging it down. I am not surprised this show is holding it's own. It may become a benchmark for writing (fingers crossed). This show owes it's success to writing and directing. The cast is up to par in acting, but the writers are giving them their sparkle.

 

[Joelist]

And...today the US Army announced they too are dropping the 9mm Beretta and will hold a competition for the new sidearm. My guess is the .45 MEUSOC wins it since they can point to it being in service with Special Operations Units that love it.

 

[YJ02]

I gather the USMC decision came in part from MEU members getting M1911s with their own money and having the machine shops (on the amphibious warfare ships for example) help them with keeping the weapons up. That is how disillusioned they got with the lack of stopping power in the Beretta - accuracy is not a replacement for stopping power in a close quarters weapon.

Anyway, Colt then showed off the .45 MEUSOC which was actually designed in part from feedback from these same disillusioned personnel, and a few shifts here and there and the accuracy was much better than the old M1911 and they even got the magazine capacity up to 9 rounds. The rest is history.

And they must have made a few stops at Naval JAG as well--trying to deploy with personally owned weapons--even a knife--is a violation of UCMJ, About the only thing you can bring is a pocket knife.

Using an unauthorized weapon is akin to disobeying orders--one is issued the weapons deemed necessary and proper. If the DoD/ USMC (stupidly) wants to use an inferior handgun then one must use it. There is a "suggestions" program in wide use among the DoD for service members to submit their ideas, it is used and many servicemembers receive a cash reward of DoD finds merit to the idea.

It really doesn't matter anyhow, the handgun is a highly ineffective piece of combat weaponry. The "close quarters" combat argument is old one and the M4 fills that need.

 

[YJ02]

And...today the US Army announced they too are dropping the 9mm Beretta and will hold a competition for the new sidearm. My guess is the .45 MEUSOC wins it since they can point to it being in service with Special Operations Units that love it.

Given the decade long trend by DoD to standardize all equipment for cost saving reasons (except the few amphib vehicles the USMC has, they have identical vehicles to the Army and the Cobra gunship is another exception)

It will take the DoD "process" a long while to decide on a new handgun, in the meantime, I suspect the Army will just stop using handguns altogether (except for MP's on garrison patrol)

 

[Joelist]

And they must have made a few stops at Naval JAG as well--trying to deploy with personally owned weapons--even a knife--is a violation of UCMJ, About the only thing you can bring is a pocket knife.

Using an unauthorized weapon is akin to disobeying orders--one is issued the weapons deemed necessary and proper. If the DoD/ USMC (stupidly) wants to use an inferior handgun then one must use it. There is a "suggestions" program in wide use among the DoD for service members to submit their ideas, it is used and many servicemembers receive a cash reward of DoD finds merit to the idea.

It really doesn't matter anyhow, the handgun is a highly ineffective piece of combat weaponry. The "close quarters" combat argument is old one and the M4 fills that need.

They probably did check with JAG first. And JAG probably exempted them on the same basis it exempted Special Operations troops who also have been known to bring personally procured weapons into combat. Either that or the M1911 was still on the authorized weapons list and had just never been removed.

 

[Joelist]

Given the decade long trend by DoD to standardize all equipment for cost saving reasons (except the few amphib vehicles the USMC has, they have identical vehicles to the Army and the Cobra gunship is another exception)

It will take the DoD "process" a long while to decide on a new handgun, in the meantime, I suspect the Army will just stop using handguns altogether (except for MP's on garrison patrol)

I'm not sure about that. Special Ops uses pistols, MPs do, Medics are issued pistols as are officers. They have uses.

 

[YJ02]

I'm not sure about that. Special Ops uses pistols, MPs do, Medics are issued pistols as are officers. They have uses.

Next to no one either wanted or was auhtorized a 9mm when I was still in. The army didn't procure enough to replace the 45 on a one for one basis--actually two weapons were to be replaced by the M9 Beretta and the M4= the .45 handgun and the .45 "grease gun--which until about 1996 or so, was still being used by tankers and other track crewmen

Not all officers are auth a M9 by MTOE (MILITARY TABLE OF AUTHORIZATION, ORGANIZATION AND EQUIP). It is normally only Company, Bn and BDE and higher commanders and all flag officers (o6 (colonel) and up). All staff officers had their M1911's replaced by the M4 (though you will probably never see an off carrying one with a m203 attached)

Only senior enlisted medics (SFC and higher) and Phys assistants and doctors and some nurses carry 9mm's. Many nurses carry M16'S or M4's. All other medical personnel carry weapons as determined by MTOE (M16,M4, M249)

Normally only garrison (called the "law enforcement company") MP's and CID are authorized 9mm's. MP field units use the M4/16 or M249

Special Op units (not ranger--"green beret" and delta only) are not governed by MTOE or at the least have a flexible, unit cdr discretion mtoe. As such, in addition to standard issue weapons, SF units will have a variety of other weapons even have funds for "local purchase" if necessary

No one in any other unit would bring a .45--not only would they risk serious charges (weapons charge in the military is a serious normally career ending one) but the supply chain would not support it with ammo or spare parts. Unit armorers would only have the basic toolkit for a unit's auth weapon set.

No one brings personally owned weapons to a deployment or combat--it is not only a violation of UCMJ but could also be a violation of federal criminal codes (most deployments take place on chartered civie flights so only unit manifested weapons can go aboard)

Now it wouldn't surprise me if some nasty Guardsmen tried this kind of BS-they are usually full of crap and phony toughness as it is

In 2003 and later, even those personnel who had civie body armor sent to them were subjected to UCMJ action as they were wearing body armor not military tested or approved. And the line they were using to the media "they gave us vietnam era body armor" was total BS--the guys during vietnam would have loved to have the PBA that our guys had in 2003 even though it was inferior to what they now have


Of course I can't personally say what the Marines (or indiv marines) do, but I do no that they are subject to the same UCMJ as the Army in addition to various navy and marine corp reg's that tend to be much stricter on discipline and obedience to orders then many army regs are

Hell, the marines are not even issued a "complete" permanent set of TA-50 (field gear) other then the basic load bearing vest and ruck and kevlar--all other equipment is issued as needed. This enhances marine readiness and mobility by not having to lug around all of the crap gear that soldiers get and nearly never use. Point being is that they pay very strict attention to detail and I believe that if a marine tried to bring a p.o.w. on deployment then they would be seriously hammered. When we all attended AIT together at Ft Sill in the winter, we would wear our field jackets and the marines didn't--they couldn't as -at least at that time period-they were not issued field jackets in boot. Something about since they went to boot in the summer then they would not get their jackets until they got to their first unit. They had to settle for the long underwear that was available from clothing sales--and back then, the long underwear sucked big time--just an example

And just how would one (army or marine) get a pow on base? If in the barracks or family housing--the pow must be registered with the provost marshal and stored in the unit arms room. It needs unit cdr approval for issue and that will not happen if reason given is to take on deployment. Off post- vehicles are searched and if you get caught coming on base with a weapon in your vehicle you will have a good chance at a quick discharge if not a trip to leavenworth military prison

Non SF personnel using non issued weapons (or field gear for that matter) is just not practical even if was authorized--the idea is the stuff of Hollywood I am afraid

 

[Joelist]

I don't get my information from Hollywood.

I know full well about the MTOE and about policy. I was just being more general while you provided the specifics. Thanks for that.

It is still interesting that the Army is following the Marines and ditching the Beretta.

 

[Joelist]

Okay, episode four watched.

Overall not bad. Definitely a departure from what they were doing as the lack of maintenance (due to lack of a functioning support vessel/yard and spare parts) caught up with them big time. Most of what they showed was fairly realistic (like using stills on every liquid they could to try to distill some more drinking water). The bit with sails is okay conceptually but I think they would need more of them to get any speed (granted they only said 4 knots and the hull of a Burke is VERY streamlined underwater) and conceptually if they can make the screw turn enough they would be able to get a little power from that turbine as its power generation ability comes as a side effect of its turning.

They still kept the interpersonal stuff well under control, and the group prayer on the ship is far from uncommon in the Navy - I participated in a couple myself when we REALLY needed something to go our way.

On the other side, the pacing was a bit slower than we've gotten used to and this episode was definitely not Science Fiction - if anything it was sort of a survival drama. Acting was still very much up to par and the characters are both consistent in how they act and are developing over the course of the show.