Science things

Jim of WVa

Well Known GateFan
If they did that, half their money would dry up! The funding strategy of CERN and the LHC is no different from UNICEF or any charitable organization. They tell you all the wonderful things they are doing (or going to do) with your money, and kindly ask for donations starting at one million dollars to continue their noble cause. :facepalm: The ROI is dismal for the facility. The advancements made at CERN are mediocre considering the cost of the projects. There is even a subset of parasitic private entities which sell specialized chips and hardware specifically for the facility and survive solely on their vendor relationship with CERN.

Check this out: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...llider-lhc-god-particle-hiatus_n_2410871.html



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BTW, anyone with evidence debunking what I have said, please chime on in and swing with the best you got! Particularly my numbered list of things known to be theoretical (like the higgs Boson and also the "four fundamental forces").

The Higgs Boson will not be found. But glorious "new discoveries" will pepper the journey to nowhere, continuing funding for a bit longer until the gig is up. By then there will be requests for money to communicate to (theorized) beings existing on large subatomic particles. :anim_59:

All of mainstream science debunks you.
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You should, at least, quote a message when you post a one word message, so that we can tell what you are reacting to.
--- merged: Mar 28, 2013 at 10:24 PM ---
Here is where the "science and math people" get mad and call me a lowbrow Luddite,but-Reading and seeing some results of science experiment and research is cool-sometimes- but I do not really see a point to them unless they ultimately are going to lead to a "betterment of society".

This goes hand in hand with the research to publication process I have ranted about before in other threads (that is the speed at which anything "new" found in history/archaeology and other areas takes to get from the find to public domain/ "in the books") research done for the sake of research; so that physics post grad can get another PhD-with the PhD being the only 'good' that comes from the experiment.

I realize things come in steps and a lengthy process can ensue in science--hence my questioning of what could the higgs bosun do for us in time--and that rarely, if ever, are new findings completed in one step.

With the research in switzerland for example, and the search for the "god particle"-what is the purpose beyond the find? With us knowing how the god particle works-it will allow us to do what?

Learning what causes materials to have mass and inertia could lead to anti-gravity technology or spacecraft able to accelerate to nearly the speed of light (~0.9999c).
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
All of mainstream science debunks you.

Sorry, it does not. The Higgs Boson has not been found. Physics cannot verify with empirical evidence that there are four "fundamental forces" and they are 100% arbitrary, like the creation of "races" was. Simple, end of story. The Standard Model has serious flaws, and empirical evidence is no longer supporting that model. You cant just blurt out stuff without backing them up. I sure didnt. Here is my backup from several credible sources:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/c...article-physics-by-amir-d-aczel/#.UVUz4xyOSCk

It is for the goals of finding the Higgs and discovering at least one new particle predicted by supersymmetry, that the Large Hadron Collider (LHC)—a colossal project costing over $10 billion—was built by CERN between Switzerland and France near Geneva. The LHC began its operations (at half its maximum energy) on March 30, 2010, and in the year and a half since then, has provided invaluable new information about the particles and forces of the standard model. But to the surprise of many physicists it has so far failed completely in discovering either a Higgs boson or any particles predicted by supersymmetry.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/life-and-physics/2013/jan/03/flat-earth-science-asimov


The joy of being wrong
If evidence for one of these new theories turns up, or we find something that doesn't fit the predictions of the Standard Model, one could say the Standard Model is wrong. It surprises people sometimes to know that such an occurrence would be greeted with pretty much universal joy by particle physicists.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/a...etry-fails-test-forcing-physics-seek-new-idea

Supersymmetry has dominated the particle physics landscape for decades, to the exclusion of all but a few alternative theories of physics beyond the Standard Model.
“It's hard to overstate just how much particle physicists of the past 20 to 30 years have invested in SUSY as a hypothesis, so the failure of the idea is going to have major implications for the field,” said Peter Woit, a particle theorist and mathematician at Columbia University.
Ya know Jim, you blurt out all sorts of stuff like that without backing them up with facts. Why is that? :confused0006: ;)
 

Jim of WVa

Well Known GateFan
Sorry, it does not. The Higgs Boson has not been found. Physics cannot verify with empirical evidence that there are four "fundamental forces" and they are 100% arbitrary, like the creation of "races" was. Simple, end of story. The Standard Model has serious flaws, and empirical evidence is no longer supporting that model. You cant just blurt out stuff without backing them up. I sure didnt. Here is my backup from several credible sources:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/c...article-physics-by-amir-d-aczel/#.UVUz4xyOSCk



http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/life-and-physics/2013/jan/03/flat-earth-science-asimov



http://www.scientificamerican.com/a...etry-fails-test-forcing-physics-seek-new-idea


Ya know Jim, you blurt out all sorts of stuff like that without backing them up with facts. Why is that? :confused0006: ;)

None of your quoted sources would agree with your assertion:

Overmind One said:
The funding strategy of CERN and the LHC is no different from UNICEF or any charitable organization. They tell you all the wonderful things they are doing (or going to do) with your money, and kindly ask for donations starting at one million dollars to continue their noble cause. The ROI is dismal for the facility. The advancements made at CERN are mediocre considering the cost of the projects. There is even a subset of parasitic private entities which sell specialized chips and hardware specifically for the facility and survive solely on their vendor relationship with CERN.
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
Am I correct or not with regard to the fundamental forces and the Standard Model? Lol. I am. Of course CERN would not agree with my take on their tactics.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
 

Jim of WVa

Well Known GateFan
Am I correct or not with regard to the fundamental forces and the Standard Model? Lol. I am. Of course CERN would not agree with my take on their tactics.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

Let me guess, your opinion is backed up by a web site that also discusses hollow earth.
 

YJ02

Well Known GateFan
All of mainstream science debunks you.
--- merged: Mar 28, 2013 at 10:20 PM ---


You should, at least, quote a message when you post a one word message, so that we can tell what you are reacting to.
--- merged: Mar 28, 2013 at 10:24 PM ---


Learning what causes materials to have mass and inertia could lead to anti-gravity technology or spacecraft able to accelerate to nearly the speed of light (~0.9999c).

Now that seems useful, practical science.
 

Bluce Ree

Tech Admin / Council Member
Learning what causes materials to have mass and inertia could lead to anti-gravity technology or spacecraft able to accelerate to nearly the speed of light (~0.9999c).

I agree with this. I have no issues with CERN or their collider. Some of the most important discoveries throughout history were accidental.
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
Let me guess, your opinion is backed up by a web site that also discusses hollow earth.

Nope. :) You have the links. Anyone looking at the problems to solve in physics will see the fallacy of thinking that a collider will give 100% of the story.
 

mzzz

Well Known GateFan
^Start your own thread in flame and call it "overmind one's corner" or better yet, learn some science man
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
^Start your own thread in flame and call it "overmind one's corner" or better yet, learn some science man

What is that supposed to mean? I already know some science. A significant body of it, in fact. I know that the LHC is not going to find the Higgs Boson, and I also know that it is a huge money pit. Are we gonna go there again? You are back to posting unqualified quips again and not commenting on how you feel so confident about the existence of a Higgs Boson. You did not address my question about the "four fundamental forces". Lets try again...are these "four fundamental forces" empirical fact or are they theoretical as I have stated? The fact that there are no physical constants remains. And the Strong and Gravitational forces are still a mystery to physics because the tools being used merely smash particles together. I provided analogies and examples. But you just post "wow" :anim_59:.

Try UNDERSTANDING what you are studying, man. Any memory stick or hard drive can store data like a student. It takes vision to see what the data means (or doesnt mean). The fact is that the Standard Model used in physics is not explaining what even those at CERN have predicted. The processes seen happening in the actual physical universe are not being explained by prevailing theory. So just how valuable is the data? I find the trailblazers in physics far more interesting and encouraging than the drones who merely sit and allow themselves to be programmed and then regurgitate the same old shit we have had for the past 300 years or so. I found this article interesting:

http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/09/13/higgs-problems/

Excerpts:


To refresh, back on 4th of July, the LHC experiments announced the outstanding and historical discovery of a new particle with properties consistent with the Standard Model Higgs boson. No doubt, this is a fantastic feat by the experiments, a triumph and culmination of a decades-long endeavor. However, there is deep concern about the existence of a 125 GeV Higgs boson. Being roughly 130 times the proton’s mass, this Higgs boson is too light. A full and formal calculation of the Higgs boson’s mass, according to the theory that predicts it, places the Higgs mass pretty close to infinity. Obviously, the Higgs boson’s mass is less than infinite. So let’s talk mass and why this is still a very good thing for particle physics.

Λ is called the “cutoff scale” of the SM. Physically, it represents the energy at which the SM stops working. I mean it: we stop calculating things when we get to energies equal to Λ. Experimentally, Λ is at least a few hundred times the mass of the proton. If Λ is very LARGE, like several times larger than the LHC’s energy range, then the observed Higgs mass gets an equally LARGE bump. For example, if the SM were 100% correct for all energies, then Λ would be infinity. If this were true, then
(the Higgs boson’s mass) = (something not infinity) + (something infinity) ,
which comes out inevitably to be infinity. In other words, if the Standard Model of Physics were 100% correct, then the Higgs boson’s mass is predicted to be infinity. The Higgs boson is not infinity, obviously, and therefore the Standard Model is not 100%. Therefore, the existence of the Higgs boson is proof that there must be new physics somewhere.


A roomful of people who can recite learned materials is not as valuable as a single student who stands up and sees that the Standard Model is wrong and cannot explain what is seen in the actual physical universe, and seeks NEW knowledge. I find it amusing that "atomic theory" came from a philosopher and a poet (Democritus and Leucippus) and not "scientists" like the mathematicians of the time. New physics are unlikely to come from those who depend on already written theories. Its the same as any pianist who can play classical music flawlessly, but cannot compose.
 

Jim of WVa

Well Known GateFan
What is that supposed to mean? I already know some science. A significant body of it, in fact. I know that the LHC is not going to find the Higgs Boson, and I also know that it is a huge money pit. Are we gonna go there again? You are back to posting unqualified quips again and not commenting on how you feel so confident about the existence of a Higgs Boson. You did not address my question about the "four fundamental forces". Lets try again...are these "four fundamental forces" empirical fact or are they theoretical as I have stated? The fact that there are no physical constants remains. And the Strong and Gravitational forces are still a mystery to physics because the tools being used merely smash particles together. I provided analogies and examples. But you just post "wow"...

CERN is not a huge money pit. The US Defense Department is a money pit. Middle class entitlements are a huge money pit.
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
CERN is not a huge money pit. The US Defense Department is a money pit. Middle class entitlements is a huge money pit.

I agree on all, but CERN is most definitely a money pit. At least The DoD has something to show for the trillions we have spent on it, and the entitlements are more lower blue collar class than middle class. What exactly is a "middle class entitlement" anyway? The middle class is not collecting welfare or using food stamps or getting Farm Aid or Black Lung Benefit or utilizing housing subsidies.

CERN was built specifically to find the Higgs Boson at a cost of 10 BILLION dollars and has cost more than a billion each year in operation. What have they given us that is truly useful? Like Eniac and the Cray I in its day, they were large scale projects which (at the time) were the cutting edge tools available to work with. Today, they would be as useless as the old computers in Crystal Mountain seen in the Terminator 3 movie. The Large Hadron Collider cannot tell us anything about the Strong and Gravitation forces because it is a COLLIDER. Colliders cannot do this. They cannot explore these forces. And they will not find the Higgs Boson because the "particle" itself cannot exist. The 40-year old Standard Model is 40 years out of date, but then so is most of physics (or much longer out of date). But other "discoveries" will happen whilst they are searching for it. The point is that the purpose of the collider is to find the mathematically appealing Higgs particle, and from all the data collected, it does not appear to exist AT ALL.

I am not just some loony layman tearing down the tenets of physics because I have a wild hair up my ass. I have an intense interest in physics and it frustrates the hell out of me that so many resources and so much money is being WASTED looking in the wrong places. Colliders cannot tell us what we need to know. Fermilab showed us that, and the LHC at CERN is just more waste.

I take a look at Stephen Hawking's work and shake my head. An entire career studying black holes has yielded "Hawking Radiation" which is supposed to be radiation emanating AWAY from a black hole due to quantum effects. But how does this differ from Unruh radiation or thermal radiation? Mathematics which are using any sort of light constant will be inherently flawed. Colliders cannot induce fusion reactions as they occur in space or on the subatomic level, because particles do not smash into each other in that fashion. My analogy of earth being "studied" by smashing a moon sized body into it is a perfect example. What exactly can you learn about performing such an experiment except perhaps determining the constituent parts of the planet (as seen in the chunks)? This is what the LHC does on the subatomic level. The Tevatron is no better.

I found it amusing that CERN announced the "discovery" of the Higgs Boson particle on July 4th 2012. Oooh...how dramatic :rolleye0014:. And I wonder how many people are aware that the EU and the US were competing to "discover" it first? The reality is that it may not exist AT ALL. To me, after looking at what the Higgs Boson is supposed to be:

A "massless particle" which generates a "field" which gives mass to other particles.

RIDICULOUS. They are essentially saying that this particle is a shadow with no mass, but it gives mass to other particles. The all-powerful "Higgs field" is said to permeate the entire universe. Again, RIDICULOUS. These theories are made possible by the Standard Model which is being more and more disproven as the search for the Higgs Boson continues. In this instance, the Standard Model is the culprit.
 

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
A small part of ONE of his theories is allegedly proved. Not Special Relativity. Even so, there are other possible explanations of what was observed.

Not "allegedly" dude, it holds up for now, and if it holds up for now, you build on it.
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
Not "allegedly" dude, it holds up for now, and if it holds up for now, you build on it.

Im okay with what they have found, and it does not directly contradict what is seen in nature. In fact it does indeed support it. I would only go ballistic if anyone anywhere claimed to have "verified" any sort of constant anywhere in the Universe. That they will not be able to prove because none exist. I am most resistant to any theories made possible by the assumption of a constant. Like time travel and "time dilation". Or like mass increasing to infinity as it approaches the "speed of like" which right now is treated as a constant in physics. These gravitational theories are okay for a solid start.
 

YJ02

Well Known GateFan
Not "allegedly" dude, it holds up for now, and if it holds up for now, you build on it.

Ok ,not to be a Luddite or anything (and I do to happen to, of course, fully believe in the theory) so many theories are "alleged" due to either a preponderance of "proof" (something very hard to do in social sciences) or by a simple majority of the academia involved
with that-Evolution is,and must likely always will be "alleged" unless someone builds a time machine-again, I do believe in it for whatever thats worth

and OM1-that is why, among other things, archaeological and other evidence has 'created" the allegation and acceptance of certain histories from certain parts of the world--it is widely accepted by the academic "club" and the wealth of evidence-physical, written, painted or inscribed- CURRENTLY lends credence to the held belief

the world and nature are so damn picky aren't they? If it would just "cough up" its secrets in one big Pandora's box and fill us in....but then what would we argue about? :SmileyLaughingTears::rolleyes::)
 
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