Science things

mzzz

Well Known GateFan
Just post some general science stuff, whatever you want that is science related. Not enough science or people in this forum to really justify having new threads every time.

Quantum mechanics - for a long while, scientists were debating whether light was a wave or particle. There are many experiments giving empirical evidence for both cases: Huygens and Young's double slit interference patters, Maxwell's EM wave equations, JJ Thompson, blackbody radiation, Planck's works. Eventually Einstein figured out how it is both with his paper on the photoelectric effect. So more work expanded on light showing lots of ways how massless photons are able to have particle-like behaviour. So the natural question to ask, since physicists are all about symmetry, is whether particles/matter are able to have wave-like behaviour. The answer surprisingly turns out to be yes. More later (if you got this far).

Personal - I wish there were more general physicists and even cultural icons like Sagan and Feynman who get the public interested in science, but everyone chooses to specialize in some field or another. Even sci-fi used to get people interested in science, but now seems more people are interested in as much interpersonal strife as possible laced with their sci-fi shows. It's difficult enough for universities to churn out physicists as is since everyone prefers applied/practical fields such as engineering and such, but even harder to churn out physicists who want to learn enough of every subject to try and see how things converge/merge. I personally think, there's more to be gained with learning convergence of various fields rather than specialize and focus on just one particular field. This is more easily done with theoretical fields, but I refer you back to my point earlier about how most people tend to go for career/money over pushing the boundaries of knowledge. Think there's also the factor of how little people seem to care about such pursuits of knowledge and prefer to fund/support/care more about applied fields such as personal tech, entertainment, creature comforts, etc.

Another personal - we need another cold war. Doesn't have to be senseless bloody and genocide filled war, just a cold one. I mean, you have to admit, the cold war generated a lot of competition between the two sides. The space race and other technological races so to speak. Granted, most of it was done for military applications but there was a lot of interest and push for the rational sciences. And to me, I think as you start to learn more rational thinking, you begin to form a sort of increased wisdom about things and questioning things as opposed to blind obedience to ideologies. We also need more sci-fi, good sci-fi, space sci-fi, not sci-fi with characters who desperately need therapy/interpersonal relationship skills. Also, parents, please hit your kids. LOL, I know, I know, I shouldn't be saying that, but I mean it in a good way not the abusive way.
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
Just post some general science stuff, whatever you want that is science related. Not enough science or people in this forum to really justify having new threads every time.

Quantum mechanics - for a long while, scientists were debating whether light was a wave or particle. There are many experiments giving empirical evidence for both cases: Huygens and Young's double slit interference patters, Maxwell's EM wave equations, JJ Thompson, blackbody radiation, Planck's works. Eventually Einstein figured out how it is both with his paper on the photoelectric effect. So more work expanded on light showing lots of ways how massless photons are able to have particle-like behaviour. So the natural question to ask, since physicists are all about symmetry, is whether particles/matter are able to have wave-like behaviour. The answer surprisingly turns out to be yes. More later (if you got this far).

Interesting and logical direction physics seems to be taking lately.

Personal - I wish there were more general physicists and even cultural icons like Sagan and Feynman who get the public interested in science, but everyone chooses to specialize in some field or another. Even sci-fi used to get people interested in science, but now seems more people are interested in as much interpersonal strife as possible laced with their sci-fi shows. It's difficult enough for universities to churn out physicists as is since everyone prefers applied/practical fields such as engineering and such, but even harder to churn out physicists who want to learn enough of every subject to try and see how things converge/merge. I personally think, there's more to be gained with learning convergence of various fields rather than specialize and focus on just one particular field. This is more easily done with theoretical fields, but I refer you back to my point earlier about how most people tend to go for career/money over pushing the boundaries of knowledge. Think there's also the factor of how little people seem to care about such pursuits of knowledge and prefer to fund/support/care more about applied fields such as personal tech, entertainment, creature comforts, etc.

I totally agree with everything you said there, especially the bolded. :) The incentive to further science MUST involve the public to a degree that it has some control over the process. Another excellent point you made was about science fiction. "Real" science fiction used to be a way to realize new technology and new society models using imagined (but science based) future capabilities. Today, it has morphed into a formulaic set of plot lines conforming to a dramatic format heavy on character development and relationships instead of science. There is no excitement being generated about science in such a genre. And if you are one of those new thinking physicists coming through school, I am rooting hard for you! Bring change. :) The last bolded point is an effect of capitalism. :( The incentive is not the pursuit of science or knowledge, but the pursuit of wealth and power. Great points.

Another personal - we need another cold war. Doesn't have to be senseless bloody and genocide filled war, just a cold one. I mean, you have to admit, the cold war generated a lot of competition between the two sides. The space race and other technological races so to speak. Granted, most of it was done for military applications but there was a lot of interest and push for the rational sciences. And to me, I think as you start to learn more rational thinking, you begin to form a sort of increased wisdom about things and questioning things as opposed to blind obedience to ideologies. We also need more sci-fi, good sci-fi, space sci-fi, not sci-fi with characters who desperately need therapy/interpersonal relationship skills. Also, parents, please hit your kids. LOL, I know, I know, I shouldn't be saying that, but I mean it in a good way not the abusive way.

This was an awesome post. :)
 

mzzz

Well Known GateFan
Some backtracking:

Back when people thought that light was a wave, the natural train of thought was to suppose that there is some medium that light travels through. Sound waves go through air, ripples go through water, seismic events propagate through the earth's ground. So it was supposed that light propagated through a medium with the somewhat appropriate name 'luminiferous aether'. Naturally, all sorts of experiments were devised to discover the properties of said aether.

The most famous experiment involving this luminiferous aether is the Michelson-Morley experiment. The simple breakdown of the experiment involved a parallel concept to what we would normally think of normal waves. All of this is to the best of my understanding, which isn't much. The parallel concept is this: as a wave moves faster through its respective medium, it encounters more 'resistance' from the medium so to speak, there would be a difference between going through the medium at one speed and at another speed because of the medium. They wanted to discover the properties of the medium. So Michelson came up with this really precise instrument called the interferometer. It measured phase differences in light waves which would give us information about the luminiferous aether. They decided to use the earth and its different speeds at different points in space as it goes around the sun. They made some dramatic predictions about the aether and the effects it would have on the phase differences. So they measured the light waves at those different points looking for the phase differences with their interferometer. But what happened? They got a null result! There was no phase differences! People had a field day, well scientists, well physicists. This led to a lot of the invariance descriptions of light and the invariance of physics under different frames of reference. Craziness. I know, I know, please contain your excitement. lol

Don't want to go through JJ Thomson's cathode ray tube experiment in full, but a result that came out of his experiment is that he was able to calculate the ratio of an electron's charge to the mass, i.e. q/m where q is the electron's charge and m is the mass. What he wasn't able to determine was what the charge of an electron was. He couldn't measure the charge of an electron, q, but only the ratio above, q/m.

So here comes another famous experiment, brace yourselves, Millikan's oil drop experiment. Essentially, the experiment involved using certain properties of the electric field and gravity. He would send drops of oil that would gain a charge through the friction as it goes through a tiny hole. It would essentially gain a charge. Then he would use an electric field to make the charged drop of oil float. When the oil drop goes through and gains a charge, it is able to be manipulated by an electric field. Obviously the oil drop falls because of gravity so it has a gravitational force pulling it down. Then Millikan would have a generating electric force pushing the oil drop up. He would use a microscope to see when the oil drop is floating. Then after careful measurements, determine the mass of the oil drop. Since the oil drop is floating, that means the gravitational force pushing it down is exactly equal to the electric field force pushing it up. So you can equate the two. Doing this, you are able to determine the charge of an electron. Don't know about you, but that experiment was pretty damn creative, using gravity and manipulated electric field to determine the charge of an electron. Freaking clever as hell.
 

mzzz

Well Known GateFan
Unfortunately I can't say more conceptual things into quantum mechanics because I haven't learned them yet and because the rest involves higher level math than people are used to. This applies to all of physics, you cannot penetrate further into physics without math. You only will end up getting a glance of it, very superficial. So instead, lets talk maglevs.

If you have taken the basic EM physics course, then you should know a current can generate a magnetic field. This field can be used to propel things because magnets have this polarization into what normal people know as north and south poles. Opposites attract and likes repel (up to a point, more later). So if you have trains with giant magnets on their underside, you can have train tracks and run currents through them to generate a magnetic field to push and pull them along the tracks. You also levitate the trains slightly so the trains aren't really on the tracks but levitated when current is running through the tracks. This levitation is slightly similar to an air hockey table. The reason the puck moves so effortlessly across the table is because of the low friction. I mean, I'm sure you've noticed that when you try to hit it when the air isn't running, it doesn't go anywhere really. This cushion of air allows less friction and makes it easier to propel the train on the tracks using just electricity. No engine in the trains, i.e. less extra baggage. Just magnets and some simple physics (of course it's a lot more complicated than this). Japan and Europe have already utilized this. I don't know if we have that in the US. They should try to set them up in high population density areas. Maglevs are pretty damn fast too; they're capable of going 300 mph. To give a sense of scale, your standard commercial airplanes go about 550 mph.

You've always learned that opposites attract and likes repel. Well, this is true for certain ranges, but once you get really close, then likes start attracting. Two objects with like charges normally repel. But as you bring them together, you create some slight polarization pushing away some of the positive charges in one object which leads to an increased attractive force. Craziness huh. The gravitational force drops off as 1/(r^2), the Coulomb force drops off as 1/(r^2), magnetic force drops off as well but depends on other geometric considerations. Still, it's slightly uncanny that they both fall off in the same manner. When I say drops off/falls off I mean, how stronger or less stronger the force is as you decrease/increase the radius between the objects in consideration.

Physics is all about symmetry and essentially duality. Electric forces have attractive force and repulsive forces. However, gravitational force seems to be only attractive. Some people even thing that since there is a matter universe, then due to this duality we observe in nature all the time, there may be a antimatter universe.
 

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
I have one disagreement here, and that being the mathematics.

High order math is not required to *understand* a concept, or even design a concept. High order math is required to "make it work".
 

mzzz

Well Known GateFan
I was talking in context to quantum and deeper level physics. I think you're talking about general concepts or something else.
 

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
I was talking in context to quantum and deeper level physics. I think you're talking about general concepts or something else.
General concepts.
One does not need to know high order math to understand "how" something works, you need high lvl math to *make* it work.
Your intro paragraph (on the post with maglevs) implies that without knowledge of high level math you cannot understand the concepts of physics, and thats not correct at all. I am a math BUNNY, and thats generous, yet I have no problem whatsoever in conceptualizing many "high order physics designs". I'll never be the dude who makes such things *work* however.
 

mzzz

Well Known GateFan
I think you're misunderstanding man. I said I can't say more conceptual things in quantum cause it involves higher order math. Then I said, sure you can have a superficial glance at physics without math (or the way you're saying it, concepts), but it'll be only superficial. And I think you grossly misunderstand math. It's purpose isn't to solely make things "work." I think you seem to be saying the math only comes into play in retrospect of modeling physics. But math does more than that, the models make predictions and have consequences that predict certain observable physics. Dirac predicted the existence of anti-particles purely from mathematical analysis on the Dirac equation. The concept of antimatter came after working on the math.
 

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
I think you're misunderstanding man. I said I can't say more conceptual things in quantum cause it involves higher order math. Then I said, sure you can have a superficial glance at physics without math (or the way you're saying it, concepts), but it'll be only superficial. And I think you grossly misunderstand math. It's purpose isn't to solely make things "work." I think you seem to be saying the math only comes into play in retrospect of modeling physics. But math does more than that, the models make predictions and have consequences that predict certain observable physics. Dirac predicted the existence of anti-particles purely from mathematical analysis on the Dirac equation. The concept of antimatter came after working on the math.
Is antimatter a fact or a concept, one word will suffice. :)
 

mzzz

Well Known GateFan
Depends on how you define those things, eh? But to me, in that context, it was conceptual until they've empirically verified the concept elevating it to fact.
 

mzzz

Well Known GateFan
Uh, I guess, but you can have facts such as 2+2=4, definitional or resulting from. I'm getting the feeling you're trying to trap me somehow, lol. You're the one asking about fact/concept, why don't you define them?
 

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
Uh, I guess, but you can have facts such as 2+2=4, definitional or resulting from. I'm getting the feeling you're trying to trap me somehow, lol. You're the one asking about fact/concept, why don't you define them?
Well...................
Mathematically 2+2 is really 3.99999999999999999999999 ad infinitum due to entropic decay :P :lol:

I'm not trying to trap you at at all Mzzz. To *me* "fact" is only applicable when looking at past events, something happened or happens *this way for now*, everything else is concepts as far as I am concerned.
I dun haz da maff ta trapz ya :lol:
 

mzzz

Well Known GateFan
Why insist on some temporal quality to facts? Would you further insist on some spatial quality as well or no? Always thought concepts involved abstract thoughts.
 

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
Why insist on some temporal quality to facts?
Would you further insist on some spatial quality as well or no? Always thought concepts involved abstract thoughts.

ROFL LOL :lol: :lol:

You are confusing fact with truth :P
 

mzzz

Well Known GateFan
How am I confusing fact with truth? Didn't say anything about truth. You put in some temporal quality ('past events') to fact, so why not add spatial? Was asking why you put in that temporal quality in the first place.
 

Bluce Ree

Tech Admin / Council Member
I have one disagreement here, and that being the mathematics.

High order math is not required to *understand* a concept, or even design a concept. High order math is required to "make it work".


Please design a conceptual device that would construct a working theoretical wormhole without the use of high order mathematics.

I'm waiting.
impatient-smiley-emoticon.gif
 

Jim of WVa

Well Known GateFan
Please design a conceptual device that would construct a working theoretical wormhole without the use of high order mathematics...

Better yet, show me one SG-1 or SGA episode that mentioned the fact that the Ancients nearly always placed their stargates in the areas on the planets that were similar to southwestern Canada.
 
Top