Oh yes, there will have to be female orks and badass female soldiers, a transgender elf queen, and a Sauronla.
Rings of Power on AMZ
- Thread starter YJ02
- Start date
Oh yes, there will have to be female orks and badass female soldiers, a transgender elf queen, and a Sauronla.
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
Oh yes, there will have to be female orks and badass female soldiers, a transgender elf queen, and a Sauronla.
there are already female orcs. they are implied due to the nature of orc reproduction. they are also mentioned in his notes
there were a few fighting women in his works, but over all, the total number of named female characters in all of his works, is maybe a dozen or less.
but this casting for a character of 'Tyra' could very well be a shortened form of an actual source material character, Tar-Aldarion, which would be a mouthful for short attn spanned viewers. so the shorten t to 'tar-a', tyra
A 'sauronla' already kind of exists. there is a character who was originally of the same order as Sauron and Gandalf, Ungoliant, the mother of spiders.
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
filming stopped for covid19, but is has been ongoing before hand. seems they plan on filming s1 and s2 eps concurrently probably due to location and actor availability
rumor (not in this article) has it that AMZ has ordered 5 seasons -- i am not sure i believe that though
there is enough source material for that many- but who orders that many seasons site unseen?
https://www.gamesradar.com/lord-of-the-rings-tv-show-release-date-trailer-news/
rumor (not in this article) has it that AMZ has ordered 5 seasons -- i am not sure i believe that though
there is enough source material for that many- but who orders that many seasons site unseen?
https://www.gamesradar.com/lord-of-the-rings-tv-show-release-date-trailer-news/
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
for me, if they used people who look like this, with little added on make-up/prosthesis, it would be far more in keeping with Tolkien's Orcs
more like "unfortunate" looking ppl rather then the near monsters of Jackson's movies
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/...134800387.html
more like "unfortunate" looking ppl rather then the near monsters of Jackson's movies
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/...134800387.html
Atlantis
Well Known GateFan
I don't know the latter narration sounds more well powerful and engaging compared to this weak intro.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhqGCPMfkNM&t=60s
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4xV2RIlMi4
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhqGCPMfkNM&t=60s
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4xV2RIlMi4
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
well.. different actors...
also,, if it is still Galadriel narrating-- which IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE-- this series is set well over 3000 years before LOTRs
so, she would have been much younger
but anyone could be narrating
it is clear now though, from the title they chose that it may only be set in the second half of the 2nd age? if its after the forging of the rings then defi.. before then not so much
the further back in time they go, the less source material there is
but the era for when all that debauchery and blood happens.. the casting calls that ppl like nerdrotic were going gooey over when they were looking for actors comfortable being naked? that period comes near the end of the 2nd age when Sauron corrupts Numenor--- it is def in the source material.. just not in detail
https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Second_Age
Atlantis
Well Known GateFan
It's not the age that the issue, it's the way it's been delivered it just sounds weak. Maybe it's just a poor choice of an actor.
This is how to narrate. I wish they could have chosen Liv Tyler to do narration.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keTMi7VI_ek
Last edited:
Atlantis
Well Known GateFan
oh look another drums and over compressed trumpet and french horn soundtrack. Very formulaic
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7v1hIkYH24
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7v1hIkYH24
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
Atlantis
Well Known GateFan
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
one and two were put up at the same time.. they are defi "wiggling" in the vast space and "wiggle room" provided. i see nothing wrong yet
I subjected myself to those episodes and that was enough. It's woke, poorly acted, has essentially no story and I want to know where the money went because the visuals look like a SyFy original movie. The cast lacks charisma and the characters are WAY off, especially Elrond and Galadriel.
Galadriel feels cheapened and demeaned here and is basically a Mary Sue Karen instead of the ethereal being she was - I remember Galadriel in the Jackson trilogy and she was truly powerful but her power was centered in her goodness and almost angelic properties not doing bad wirework sword stunts.
Elrond feels way off too. He does not feel at all like what Hugo Weaving gave us. Instead he feels like an entitled millennial (and no he is NOT gay in the lore).
This is what happens when you systematically get rid of any and all Tolkien specialists (especially they got rid of anyone from the estate). This is not LotR it is a bad woke fanfic.
Galadriel feels cheapened and demeaned here and is basically a Mary Sue Karen instead of the ethereal being she was - I remember Galadriel in the Jackson trilogy and she was truly powerful but her power was centered in her goodness and almost angelic properties not doing bad wirework sword stunts.
Elrond feels way off too. He does not feel at all like what Hugo Weaving gave us. Instead he feels like an entitled millennial (and no he is NOT gay in the lore).
This is what happens when you systematically get rid of any and all Tolkien specialists (especially they got rid of anyone from the estate). This is not LotR it is a bad woke fanfic.
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
Wow! You clearly have NOT read any Tolkien beyond LOTR's or Hobbit have you?
In Tolkien's writings Galadriel is largely unspoken of- she is named a few times in the Silmarillion and then again i various writings on the Second Age. Her actions and the actions of just about all characters, except SAURON in the SA. The only group of people/ nation that is detailed for the SA are the Numenoreans
When I said above and many times in the past that the tptbs for this show have a blank canvas, they do!
Tolkien states the SA is over 3,400 yrs in length. When we see Galadriel in LOTR's she is over 8,000 yrs old since she was born BEFORE the First Age even began.. a person can change a lot in those years,, same with Elrond or any of Tolkien's Elves
what is "woke"? please list? but remember if you issue is misogyny based, as I see so much of The Fandom is there are MANY female heroines written about by Tolkien
the story of Elwing; the story of Luthien, Elrond's great grandmother who went with her to be human husband to free a silmaril from Morgoth's crown and fought Sauron; Morwen from the Children of Hurin; Queen Melian of Doriath who protected her husband's kingdon through her use of magic (she was of the same 'race' as Gandalf ). and others
So, DO NOT EVEN TRY to go "there" with being woke on the grounds of Galadriel's depiction -- Tolkien also mentions, pretty much one of two her three SA mentions for her, is that she "journeyed far and often through middle earth" in the SA
as for the Harfoots being of darker skin.. yeah Tolkien STATED they were, from "Concerning Hobbits" and from I believe "Peoples of Middle Earth" as well:
""They were shorter and smaller than the other breeds, browner of skin, had no beards, and did not wear any footwear; Their hands and feet were neat and nimble. "
Ok.. tptbs DID have some of them with beards,, got them!
so, whats woke?
Saying the portrayal of Galadriel is woke is not misogyny. Galadriel is portrayed in this thing as a flat out Mary Sue and acts like a hectoring Karen. And there is nothing anywhere that said Galadriel was a swordmaster or wire-fu warrior. It meets the exact definition of wokeness - elevates the women by denigrating the men (which also happens, the males are all portrayed in less than flattering ways).
And...like I said above this is demeaning to Galadriel. She is already 5000 years old at this point. She is already the wisest of the High Elves. She already is at this point an almost angelic being - so why turn her into a slay queen? For that matter, why do none of the High Elves look, act or in any way feel like High Elves in this? They come across as actors wearing pointy ears and whatever garments the wardrobe department could get.
Nor am I alone in saying Galadriel and Elrond are WAY off. And the criticism is not just from one sector it is coming from everywhere (even the New York Times). If they wanted to have a REAL clean slate then they needed to not have character from LotR in it. When they do so they bind themselves to continuity for those characters. And these depictions are WAY off from what we saw in LotR.
And that is far from the only problem. Like I said the story is thin at best, the acting is uninspired at best and for something they have spent an estimated 54 million per episode on the visuals are only "meh". In still shot they look okay but the minute a person enters the screen it is (sometimes painfully) obvious that this is CGI.
Overall, this feels like what it is - a "Tolkien" show made by people with no actual understanding of Tolkien. And remember, not only did they wait until his son died to do this they also dismissed the Tolkien expert they are originally having on staff.
And...like I said above this is demeaning to Galadriel. She is already 5000 years old at this point. She is already the wisest of the High Elves. She already is at this point an almost angelic being - so why turn her into a slay queen? For that matter, why do none of the High Elves look, act or in any way feel like High Elves in this? They come across as actors wearing pointy ears and whatever garments the wardrobe department could get.
Nor am I alone in saying Galadriel and Elrond are WAY off. And the criticism is not just from one sector it is coming from everywhere (even the New York Times). If they wanted to have a REAL clean slate then they needed to not have character from LotR in it. When they do so they bind themselves to continuity for those characters. And these depictions are WAY off from what we saw in LotR.
And that is far from the only problem. Like I said the story is thin at best, the acting is uninspired at best and for something they have spent an estimated 54 million per episode on the visuals are only "meh". In still shot they look okay but the minute a person enters the screen it is (sometimes painfully) obvious that this is CGI.
Overall, this feels like what it is - a "Tolkien" show made by people with no actual understanding of Tolkien. And remember, not only did they wait until his son died to do this they also dismissed the Tolkien expert they are originally having on staff.
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
Why does there have to be? again you and all the other fandom malcontents are glibly overlooking the FACT that there is little to no detailed source material on the Second Age, deal with it
As far as her being a swordmaster- in the Silmarillion, when she is mentioned and in other writings we KNOW that she is the daughter of Finarfin, the man who became the King of all the remaining Noldor in Aman, and,as with ALL Noldor, was gifted in the craft of metallurgy and weapons making and the use of such weapons
Galadriel and her brothers along with ALL THE Noldor who left Aman in pursuit of Morgoth and the stolen Silmarils into Middle Earth were ALL trained to fight as they had to fight from their first footsteps on Middle Earth
ALSO, on page 235 of Unfinished Tales, it states that Galadriel, while still in Aman, was a student of both the Valar Aule (the 'god' of the Dwarves) and Yavanna, the Valar who oversaw the natural world. She and other Noldor would have learned both metallurgy and the use of weapons from Aule. He was nearly alone among the Valar who believed that the Elves should be prepared and trained to fight against Melkor and his perverted creatures
at this point in time she is far from the oldest or the wisest of the Elves. there are many who are older and wiser -- Cirdan is one, Celebrimbor is as old or older than her as well as many others
Tell me, paragraph, page number and TITLE of the Work where Tolkien states that Elves of any type look like this; especially in the Second Age? Latter, in LOTR's Frodo and others depict them as looking like this from their perspective as mortals who have little to no experience or interaction with Elves
Tolkien NEVER even described Elves has having 'pointy ears'. this is how Jackson chose to portray them. In fact, while alive, Tolkien rejected the notion of Elves being fairy like or angelic, and thought the idea of them having pointed ears ridiculous
He only ever described them in the way he described Men-- that men looked like Elves except Men were shorter, had more facial hair and had a wider variety of skin tones
Tolkiens idea for Elves as the First Born (awakened) and Men as Second, was that Elves were as Men were in the Biblical Eden- untouched, unblemished, unpolluted.. Exactly why he had Melkor defile Elves and twist them into Orcs
btw Orcs looking as they do is also a Jackson creation- for Tolkien, being an Orc, was more a matter of behavior and un-cultured. a de-evolutionized being and corruption of Eru's creation
So, to your point, that Elves look more 'human' in this is because that is how Tolkien envisioned them to be-- the first iteration of Humanity
------------------------------------------------------------
Why Galadriel is still wandering, seeking Sauron; per the source material: that those Noldor or rebelled against the Valar and were guiltiy of the Kinslaying were banned from returning to Aman, and that some were still banned after the final destruction of Melkor in the war of wrath and that Galadriel, along with others of the House of Feanor, were among those still banned-- so, inthe show, the use her jumping ship because they are not allowed to speak of the Ban of the Noldor as that is First Age material and not in the Rights
and
the actual location and activity of Sauron after Melkor's defeat
again, neither can be true to the source material of the Silmarillion due to restrictions of the Rights to the material; part of the deal signed with the Tolkien estate. Who, it seems are holding that info for another deal
although it does seem they have some latitude in mentioning some events from the First Age as we have seen them referred to already
Galadriel and those in her Company have been given the task by Gil-Galad of the Watch for the return of the Evil. Again NO specific mention of this is made anywhere, other than in Unf Tales; History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Tolkien wrote that the pair had wandered middle earth even into the east and south.. so.. total blank page there for tptbs to use
This story seems to be taking part near the beginning of the Second Age, so, we may see the setting up of the Elven Kingdom of Eregion. We did see the very beginnings in ep 2 when Celebrimbor and Elrond went to Khazud Dum. Eregion will be connected to the Dwarves at its western gate
then, eventually, Sauron, as the deceiver Annatar, will be welcomed into Eregion where he will assist Celebrimbor in the making of the Rings
after he is expelled, he will engage in subjugation of men of the south and east and eventually go to war against the Numenoreans, surrender to them with the plan of destroying them from within
It would seem, that so far, those who have no idea of Tolkien's works- his complete works, are those with negative criticisms
Must read ALL the source material! IDK how far they are going to go into the Fall of Numeanor, but there are at least 3 sources for that- the Akkabelleth, published in the Silmarillion, the stories of individual Numen's in Unfinished Tales and the info in the LOTR's appendices
did you know that Tolkien's original ideas for Numenor also had the musing a type of what we would call 'steam power' for their ships and weapons? Steel ships with engines-- this was back when Tolkien was trending to trying in all of his ME Tales with the legend of Atlantis
again PLEASE consult the source material to see just how much "white space" there is for TPTB's to use
I never said the elves were supposed to have pointy ears. What I said (and what is true) is the show's "elves" come across as ordinary people who have pointy ears and wear whatever the wardrobe department could scrounge up. As far as having a blank sheet, they actually partly forfeited that in some areas the minute they included Galadriel and Elrond AND also when they in some of their ads reference the films and by not specifically saying the show was not related to the films at all. So they DO need to respect the film depiction of the High Elves.
Add to this the incompetent writing (the plot is thin and lacks logic), poor acting pretty much all around (although the dwarves were kinda fun) and in general the characters were meh at best. Also their dialogue sounds more like 2020s hipsters than inhabitants of Middle Earth (I will note Strange New Worlds has the exact same problem - dialogue that sounds like 2020s hipsters instead of people in the future on a federation starship).
If they really WERE working in the white space there would not be any real discontent - alas they went right to things NOT in the white space (like the characterization of Elrond, Galadriel and the high Elves). There are very good reasons the reviews from sources not owned by Amazon or part of Access Media have been less than flattering (including place like the New York Times who are not part of the Fandom).
Oh well...at least House of the Dragon has exceeded expectations.
Add to this the incompetent writing (the plot is thin and lacks logic), poor acting pretty much all around (although the dwarves were kinda fun) and in general the characters were meh at best. Also their dialogue sounds more like 2020s hipsters than inhabitants of Middle Earth (I will note Strange New Worlds has the exact same problem - dialogue that sounds like 2020s hipsters instead of people in the future on a federation starship).
If they really WERE working in the white space there would not be any real discontent - alas they went right to things NOT in the white space (like the characterization of Elrond, Galadriel and the high Elves). There are very good reasons the reviews from sources not owned by Amazon or part of Access Media have been less than flattering (including place like the New York Times who are not part of the Fandom).
Oh well...at least House of the Dragon has exceeded expectations.
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
That's a dodge.. I did not say that you did ,did I? Merely pointing out that many people perceptions of what Tolkien's 'world' should look like has been distorted by the Jackson movies and perhaps even the Ralph Bakshi cartoons for older people
why is including these two together an issue?
I mentioned this years ago when, in here, or somewhere in GF's I had said that AMZ needed to STOP calling it a LOTRs show
however, with their first official tweet that had the Map of Middle Earth, those of us fans who know, knew it was to be set in the Second Age due to the features on the map-- which does not have Beleriand, and HAS Numenor. So not First Age or Third Age
So, in this way it WAS announced that it was not a remake or a direct connection to the films. That it is in fact, approx 70 years before the beginning of the Third Age. It is assumed based on the fact that they chose "Rings of Power" that we will be seeing the forging of the Rings by Celebrimbor under Annatar's tutelage
But. the show is off on their timing of the Rings being made. They have it set near the end of the Second Age when the Rings were forged near its beginning
this leaves out time needed for the War of the Elves and Sauron and the ruin of Eregion .. though, they just may condense things a bit
Elves are ordinary people. In all of his writings who but the nobility among the Elves do we read of wearing anything that you seem to wish they were dressed up as?
Again Tolkien's Elves are people-- the First iteration of Humanity. Eru saw that his mistake in their creation was to not have given them the gift of aging and death- this is the main difference
Also another thing that Jackson ruined along this theme-where he made an non existing difference between Elves and Men, was with his handling of Orcs. At least the Orcs in this show are more in keeping and so far, appear to be a bit more like what Tolkien described
who were, Corrupted Elves. The captured Elves we see, and even the men, working in the pits of soon to be Mordor, can soon become Orcs themselves. Tolkiens "making of an Orc" was one a process of dehumanization not of horror movie prothethesis.
Elves could be corrupted into far "better" Orcs in a more bitter and evil spirit built over longer years due to their immortality and their ability to handle injury and deliberate mutilations. Men could not
This is why we read, and Jackson avoided, the OrcMen, Goblin Men and Half Orcs. They were a problem for Jackson's narrative. However Tolkien's Fourth Age would have been full of these types of hybrid men and women nearly indistinguishable from regular men
In fact, if we got scientific about it, Orc Children, which we know existed (to prevent anyone in the fandom menace melting down if we are to see one in the show) would have been born looking ENTIRELY like their parent's original appearance- either a Elf or a Man. Orcs, as they grew, must have undergone initiations to gain mutilations and scars to gain clout and credibility as warriors
If Tolkien had known about DNA he would have known he would have had a problem here
how can anyone say this when you have not even seen the entire season play out?
other than compressing timelines as i stated above, the only BIG issue I see so far is that of the meteor man. No matter who he is, he would not have arrived in such a way
Only those Maiar or Valar who were not already a part of Ea would arrive this way, and as far as Tolkein had it, this "Set" of players is "locked".
So if it one of the Istari, which it could be, Tolkien has two dates for their arrival; beginning in 1600 Second age and last arriving at beginning of Third Age, they would not have arrived like this, but by ship at Lindon. If it is one, it is likely one of the Blues
I only say it could be one due to the amnesia like state that Gandalf had on his return as a White and its similarity to this persons issues
we all know that movies and shows, the actors will speak per the current dialect of the time and nation the show is to played in. we have had this talk before, i believe in SG threads
The Beatles as a band, once owned the rights to the LOTRs and HOBBIT, can you imagine if they had made a movie how that dialogue would have been? Stoner-Hippie Dude
what SPECIFICALLY is wrong with Elrond?
and AGAIN, how can anyone say he is "wrong" as we have no source material to say what would be the correct demeanor and portrayal of him in this time period?
Elrond is not yet a high ranking noble; he does not have his own realm-- he was essentially Gil Galad's paper boy. And, due totheir lifespans, he had not yet proven his place among the Eldar as a half elven no matter the fact his brother was King of Numenor and his family ties to the entire Numenorean Royal line
He was nothing on his own and remained in Lindon as captain and herald of Gil Galad
and again with Galadriel== Nerwen, one of her original names in Elvish, not her common speech name, meant "man-maiden" a name her Mother gave her due to her height,size and her nature. She was more suited and happiest while playing with her brothers and learning the arts of weapons usage and horse riding so her Mother named her this.
Galadriel was her name given to her by her husband much later in her life
a much BETTER CASTING- TRUE to Tolkien's description of her, would have been Gwendolyn Christie. Tolkien's male Elves were 6'5", Galadriel was said to be about an inch shorter on average; so Christie would still be too short.
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
and another thing
Jackson had a "STRONG FEMALE CHARACTER" who was NOT one in the Books in the character of Arwen! I don't remember anyone calling that out!
a total Mary Sue by having her, instead of Glorfindel, rescue the Hobbits at the Ford of Bruinen and use magic to bring a flood and drown the Nazgul, they Mary Sued Arwen into doing it
where was the outrage?
Jackson had a "STRONG FEMALE CHARACTER" who was NOT one in the Books in the character of Arwen! I don't remember anyone calling that out!
a total Mary Sue by having her, instead of Glorfindel, rescue the Hobbits at the Ford of Bruinen and use magic to bring a flood and drown the Nazgul, they Mary Sued Arwen into doing it
where was the outrage?
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
@Lord Ba'al you and the wife watching this? (what is her username? can't find it)