Star Trek thoughts - a thread for discussion (hopefully)...

Joelist

What ship is this?
Staff member
I guess I am going to be open to some flaming here, but that’s ok. My thinking on Trek is somewhat different than what has been written by other Trek fans but it is shared by a lot of my friends who are sci-fi fans all.

Point one: To me, Trek has a “spirit” or “mood” that is essential to it working properly. That is a mood of underlying optimism and also of wonder – the feel that we are going “where no one has gone before”. TOS captured this well (after all as the original series it established it). TNG while having its bad moments overall kept to this. So did Voyager (an underrated series in my estimation). Without this optimism and sense of wonder and exploration Trek just does not work.

Point Two: Based on the above point, to me Trek started to run off the proverbial rails with DS9, starting in the second half of Season 2.This is because Deep Space 9 started becoming more and more moody, dark, “edgy”(a catchphrase for overwrought characters) and instead of a sense of wonder and exploration we got power politics, genocide, murder of main characters, shipping,and an overall foreboding feel to the show. I know many think DS9 was some sort of pinnacle of Trek and its ratings were healthy – and had they left the dark, moody slop with DS9it’s possible Trek on TV may have survived. But they didn’t as we will see.

Point Three: Enterprise after starting with an honest attempt to create again the wonder and exploration degenerated late in Season 2and through Season 3 into dark, moody, shipping infested slop. IMHO they were trying to boost it by giving it some “DS9” spirit – the result was actually robbing the show of any chance of having an identity of its own. Enterprise died (and yes the finale was insulting). But the final depths were still to be plumbed….

Point Four: Star Trek Nemesis (spit). This is the worst piece of Trek ever committed to any sort of medium. It tried to capture the Wrath of Khan character dynamic but TWOK still had a sense of wonder (Kirk’s whole reaction to the Genesis experiment) and all in all was still optimistic. Nemesis was DARK (death, mass murder, rape, more death), moody slop. The fact that most of the cast performance screamed “I’m here for a paycheck” didn’t help. It especially didn’t help that the character of Shinzon came off as a Trek version of Doctor Evil from Austin Powers (kudos to Mike Stoklasa of RedLetter Media for this observation which is on target).

My point so far is Trek killed itself by getting away from its own core values (Optimism, wonder, bonds of friendship, etc.). It became dark and moody which won’t work in the Trek universe premise.

Enter Abrams and Orci.

What Trek 09 achieved should not be underestimated. The “alt timeline” plot device was the only way to get Trek back in its moorings and it worked well. Our characters really are going “where no one has gone before”again. The underlying optimism is back.The friendships feel right and the characters feel right. I can forgive some visual style choices when they got the ESSENCE right. They stripped Trek down to its core elements and now we have a good place from which future Trek can proceed.
 
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Graybrew1

Guest
I love Trek more than breathe but it do go too PC crazy at times. I hate being preached to in my TV shows and movies.
 

Joelist

What ship is this?
Staff member
I love Trek more than breathe but it do go too PC crazy at times. I hate being preached to in my TV shows and movies.

Agreed. TOS wasn't preachy and neither was VOY. TNG could get overly preachy and do did DS9 and ENT.
 

SciphonicStranger

Objects may be closer than they appear
Having Voyager and DS9 running at the same time was a mistake IMO. It was over saturation and it was not necessary. I remember literally having to pick and choose which one to watch at one point.

Enterprise broke canon and then went dark with that huge Xindi arc. It was like they were trying to kill it. :P
 

Joelist

What ship is this?
Staff member
I wound up choosing Voyager. Firstly it was much more "Trek" in spirit than DS9 and second Avery Brooks constant histrionic overacting gave me a headache. I really think they could have been more effective with Brian Blessed playing Sisko in this situation.
 

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
This will require some thought, and possibly word as well.
 

SciphonicStranger

Objects may be closer than they appear
I wound up choosing Voyager. Firstly it was much more "Trek" in spirit than DS9 and second Avery Brooks constant histrionic overacting gave me a headache. I really think they could have been more effective with Brian Blessed playing Sisko in this situation.

I stuck with Voyager too - for one reason it was on first and I was already invested. It lost me at some point though and I still don't think I ever saw them all. I've only seen bits and pieces of DS9.
 

Bluce Ree

Tech Admin / Council Member
Agreed. TOS wasn't preachy and neither was VOY. TNG could get overly preachy and do did DS9 and ENT.

I like TOS but you have to admit it was the epitome of preachy.
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
My all time favorite has to be Voyager now. I was an orthodox TOS Trekkie for many years until DS9 came out (which I loved). I loved TNG but it did not topple the top spot for me. But Voyager, it was the revival of the ship in an unfamiliar region of the universe, encountering new aliens and locales. It was Trek like in TOS only with the totally awesome Janeway as the captain, better weapons and a ship that could land on planets! :) It is still my favorite. I do prefer seasons 4 and later over the ones with Kes (1 thru 3).
 

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
My all time favorite has to be Voyager now. I was an orthodox TOS Trekkie for many years until DS9 came out (which I loved). I loved TNG but it did not topple the top spot for me. But Voyager, it was the revival of the ship in an unfamiliar region of the universe, encountering new aliens and locales. It was Trek like in TOS only with the totally awesome Janeway as the captain, better weapons and a ship that could land on planets! :) It is still my favorite. I do prefer seasons 4 and later over the ones with Kes (1 thru 3).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-M4BvG0kYPs

[video=youtube;-M4BvG0kYPs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-M4BvG0kYPs

Yeah, posted it before, but it still rocks :P
 

Joelist

What ship is this?
Staff member
I like TOS but you have to admit it was the epitome of preachy.

Okay, there were a couple like that (the aliens with black and white faces for example) but by the by the show did a good job of not telling its audience what to think.
 

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
Engage serious mode.

Ok
Star trek.

Star trek, to me engaged various things as probably what I would call thier own "prime directives" throughout each run of the various seasons and to sum them up I would call them:
1: Hope.
2: Faith.
3: Reality.
4: Truth.

TOS was ALL about hope. It was created in a very uncertain world, where we faced (real or not) the fear of self destruction. TOS gave us the hope that despite our failings, or shortcomings, that there is a "better way" for us, a way in which we are united not just as a planet, but as a species. That we *deserved* the right to "stretch our wings" and not just help form, but to be an intergral part of a a system that does not fight for the men, the women, the blacks, whites, blues or greens of the universe, but for ALL of us. It recognized that no matter what we are all *essentially human* and that commonallity outweighs ANY supposed difference between us.

TNG was all about FAITH.
That not only could or should we deserve to have that place among the stars, we EARNED it. Look at "encounter at farpoint". more than ANYTHING else it says that despite our failings, we have moved forward. We are NOT the "primitive species" we found in TOS, but a species fully aware of our strengths and weaknesses and able to accept them, and despite any failings, we continue to strive, to re-define the notion of "humanity". We have faith that the crew WILL, despite any personal cost, live up to the faith that humanity has placed in them.

DS9 is about REALITY
The ideals and ideas of the UFP are good, they are noble, the problem is, not everyone agrees with them, including elements of the UFP itself. DS9 puts the previously established ideals of trek firmly up against a mirror of a world that, quite frankly, does not care about them. Another strong element of DS9 however is the idea of actual *understanding*. Acceptance of a culture/race is all well and good, yet actual understanding of that culture is another deal entirely. The best examples of this are probably portrayed by Garak, Quark and Nog, and to a lesser extent Worf and Dax. DS9 IS the "melting pot" and how those disperate cultures react to eachother in a "honest manner" is probably as important, if not more, than the actual "story arcs" themselves.

Voyager is about TRUTH
Voyager is not "clean", it's not the usual "tell a story and go home" environment of Trek. Here is where you see EVERYTHING that the UFP stands for have to deal with reality, even moreso than DS9. Making "questionable deals", and doing what you MUST is more the theme. The core values do remain intact, yet they are stripped of a certain amount of "idealism".Another very strong element of Voyager is what will you sacrifice to remain true to your ideals. Janeway often skirts the edges, and sometimes breaks the "prime directive", yet the core values of what it is to be "human" and to hold your values as "worthwhile" are still in play.

Now, Enterprise.
I really didn't like ENT, but if I were to try to fit my "one word" description, I guess the best one would be DESIRE.
ENT represents our desire to be all of these things, to have the HOPEcan do better, to have FAITH when we get there we will do the "right thing", to be willing to face REALITY of our failings while having the strength to forge our own TRUTH.

That my friends is what Trek is to me.
 

Joelist

What ship is this?
Staff member
Interesting thoughts.

You have a higher opinion of DS9 than I do. To me it was the start of Trek running off the rails because it got away from the core values of Trek. It became dark, moody and was the first Trek to feature lots of "shipping".

To me (and its my opinion), Trek does not work when it is consistently dark. It also cannot be moody or foreboding or focus too much on relationships and work. Trek needs to be optimistic at its core - optimistic about life overall, about humanity and about its characters. Where it addresses characters it needs to emphasize their strengths and how they overcome their weaknesses. And it needs to emphasize friendship, honor, duty and above all it has to exude the sense of wonder.

When Trek moves away from these ideas (as it did in DS9, later Enterprise and the Nemesis film) it becomes an overwrought space opera.
 

Rac80

The Belle of the Ball
Janeway for Admiral!

My all time favorite has to be Voyager now. I was an orthodox TOS Trekkie for many years until DS9 came out (which I loved). I loved TNG but it did not topple the top spot for me. But Voyager, it was the revival of the ship in an unfamiliar region of the universe, encountering new aliens and locales. It was Trek like in TOS only with the totally awesome Janeway as the captain, better weapons and a ship that could land on planets! :) It is still my favorite. I do prefer seasons 4 and later over the ones with Kes (1 thru 3).


Yep voyager was amazing with Kate Mulgrew as Janeway- we saw how a woman can be a captain and still be very much a woman (TNG made their female captains too "butch" or just plan nutso! :( ) I loved Janeway---a much better captain than Picard could ever be! (I always thought TNG was too static...why did picard remain captain after being made into Locutus? he would have been flying a desk after that! why didn't Riker finally leave the enterprise and take a promotion...as the eps with Lt. COmander Shelby showed...he was standing still. not realistic portrayal of an officer with ambitions)

I loved the politics of DS9, but then I saw it as "not quite trek". I admit to being an avery brooks fan since his days as Hawk on Spenser for Hire. :)


one of the biggest difficulties I had with both VOY and DS9 was the fact they were in syndication and in Indiana sports is GOD...anytime men play with balls ( :rolleyes: ) everything else gets pre-empted! :P needless to say we rarely got to see a DS9 or VOY ep two weeks in a row. :( there are entire seasons I never saw until SPIKE tv carried them a few years ago! :icon_twisted:

ENT was okay but they tried too hard to make it "different"...I admit I loved Shran (the andorian commander) his scenes were always the most interesting and fun. I liked the portrayal of the Vulcans as not benign and perfect...seeing the machinations behind the facade was well done. I never quite trusted those vulcans....
smsmileys28.gif
 
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Graybrew1

Guest
Okay, there were a couple like that (the aliens with black and white faces for example) but by the by the show did a good job of not telling its audience what to think.
LOL. I am not seeng that at all. Remeber the ep about the magic pills the women used to be pretty. Lesson =Beauty is only skin deep.The one where the kids ran the planet. Lesson=Respect and Learn from your elders. The one where the God creatures took over the bodies of Kirk, Spock and the pretty Ensign. Lesson=Ulltimate power is equal to ultimate corruption. The Tribbles. Lesson=Too much of even a good thing is bad.......Do I need to go on?

I am fighting my way through DS9 now. This is still my least favorite ST. The acting is beyond horrible at time. Odo and Quark are the best parts of it. Sisko is more hammy then Kirk at times.
 

Joelist

What ship is this?
Staff member
There's a difference between a show having an opinion and a show telling you what to think. Trek has always presented opinions on general societal issues but when it does it right the opinion is in the background. The societal issue is a backdrop to the immediate story. And in all your examples it was exactly that. TNG sad to say went a different route, for example in several episodes it outright denigrated the idea of monogamous marriage (this in particular was done with discussions between Troi and her mother).

And DS9 is my least favorite also - like I said the feel is wrong, the mood is wrong and it was the first Trek with lots of shipping going on.
 

Joelist

What ship is this?
Staff member
Speaking of Trek (and Voyager in particular), here's something I thought some of you might find interesting. It's an AH speculation in what Voyager might have been like if Genvieve Bujold (the original actress playing Janeway) had stayed on longer, and the changes to Star Trek and televised science fiction which results from it. I found it really interesting and well written.
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=231348

I read it - IMHO they don't know what they are talking about. Somewhere out there on the web are some clips of Bujold as Janeway in the pre-production shoots. She was beyond horrible. Mulgrew was perfect for the part. And VOY was a lot better than that forum wants to think.
 
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