Wow, I just rewatched the Stargate Atlantis premiere.

[Overmind One]

I just watched Atlantis Rising, and it was interesting after not seeing it for a while. I wont rag on the episode because it was really very cool. But after seeing it I noticed so many elements of it were done much differently than SGU (which I recently watched the premiere of). The Atlantis team had planned carefully, they took everything they needed with them and the "right" people were sent. SGU started with a rushed escape to Destiny with the "wrong" people. The question is, how did the "wrong" people even end up on Icarus? Anyway, we saw dozens of people going to Atlantis, but we hardly if ever saw them in the city.

The Wraith weighed down Atlantis. I watched a few more episodes today, and I really think the opportunity for storytelling within the city were squandered in favor of focusing on the Wraith. It was fresh in my mind so I thought I would post on it!

 

[Rac80]

I always have loved the first episode of SGA-- such an amazing story. yeah the wraith weighed it down too much - but it was a great premiere. one of the best premieres I have ever seen.

 

[ParagonPie]

I will be ranting here, but the issue with the Wraith for me at least was that they weren't much of a departure from the Goa'uld. Sure they had organic based technology but they acted on the same level, they weren't illusive or adaptive in any form they just stuck with an old method which clearly doesn't work. I remember watching an interview with Brad Wright saying they wanted a new big bad that defeated the Ancients but could also be defeated weekly by the Heroes/Heroines, I just had to shake my head at that stupid statement and thought process right there.

Did the Wraith weigh down Atlantis? Because they just repeated what they did with SG1 which was getting stale in my opinion at the time, they just rehashed a lot of the previous stuff. If they had been smart (I know asking for too much these days) then the Wraith would of been a hidden enemy, not one to engage in open conflict preferring proxy than direct confrontation. The idea of not seeing your enemy might seem puzzling but it adds a mystery that has to be solved or revealed by the characters.

Example
SGA Wraith: For a race that feeds off of the 'life essence' (whatever that is, we'll just say rapid cellular division thus giving the impression of rapid aging) they seem to let their 'herd' wallow around in disease ridden, non hygienic population zones, this is the equivalent of letting cattle herd not get treated by preventable diseases. Also why wasn't cloning a method? Surely that would solve all the food resource needs?

My Version: A race that had defeated the ancients but were left with a curse, the ancients introduced a biological agent that crippled their longevity. In desperation they turned to a new source readily available one, the humans DNA was flexible enough to be grafted on, for a limited time they could reverse the bio agent extended their lifespan if used regularly. Turning from soldiers, they became interstellar reapers, no need for battleships or great armies, in contrast to the Ancients, the Wraith kept the humans of Pegasus alive and even seeding other worlds, a twisted form of the Ancients idea. Realizing they had to keep the humans at a low technological level presented problems, they kept their crop alive, secretly advancing health and immune systems yielding much healthier human produce, even in some parts making them more submissive or non aggressive. As for the anti cloning, maybe you could say the Ancients once again inserted a genetic lock in humans preventing artificial cloning (much like how the Asgard prevented Jack O'Neill's cloning by Loki).

What they could of done is switch between the two, have half of the time spent in Atlantis finding out the technology, exploring the City itself and getting into the issues of that and then have the 'away missions' where teams are sent out to gather resources with the looming threat of an unknown bad guy around the corner (i.e. hint at it, be subtle)

 

[Joelist]

I guess I didn't mind the Wraith. I liked their origin story (Ancients fed off of by the iratus bug leading to a genetic fusion) and liked both the organic technology and that they themselves were not necessarily super advanced in every area (for example in biology they were behind humanity). It also helped that Todd was a great character and that their biggest weakness turned out to be sociological - Wraith were super loyal to THEIR hive and the hives did not get along with each other at all well.

It is true that in the last season their story got too muddled and the finale with the super hive was just nonsense. But on the other hand they gave us both a strong premiere and the S1 finale is also great (The Siege). Really a much more mixed bag villain was the Asurans. Basically the Ancients created nanotech robots to fight the Wraith then lost control over them and tried to shut them down when it became apparent they could turn into a worse problem than the Wraith.

 

[Overmind One]

I guess I didn't mind the Wraith. I liked their origin story (Ancients fed off of by the iratus bug leading to a genetic fusion) and liked both the organic technology and that they themselves were not necessarily super advanced in every area (for example in biology they were behind humanity). It also helped that Todd was a great character and that their biggest weakness turned out to be sociological - Wraith were super loyal to THEIR hive and the hives did not get along with each other at all well.

It is true that in the last season their story got too muddled and the finale with the super hive was just nonsense. But on the other hand they gave us both a strong premiere and the S1 finale is also great (The Siege). Really a much more mixed bag villain was the Asurans. Basically the Ancients created nanotech robots to fight the Wraith then lost control over them and tried to shut them down when it became apparent they could turn into a worse problem than the Wraith.

The way I took it, Brad Wright et al wanted to have VAMPIRES in the show. Please refer to the other shows which were out during that time and you will notice the vampire trend that was happening outside of Stargate. So, the bottom line was that vampires had to be in the show. Brad simply explained them into the show with shady (but creative) science. Arguably, the Asurans made much more sense as did having an offshoot of the Asgards, since both had intergalactic travel capabilities. The Wraith spawned Todd because the Wraith were the central antagonist. The actor playing Todd can make any role for any aliens interesting. Mostly, there was just too much of the Wraith in the show. Teyla and her people made sense, because they were humans and they were easier to relate to. Even Ronon. They could have all explored Atlantis and concentrated on the city and it's capabilities rather than build the Wraith into this ongoing threat.

Still, I loved Atlantis and I enjoyed the episodes I have watched in my personal rewatch. I still feel that the Wraith weighed the show down.

 

[Joelist]

True, Chris Heyerdahl is an excellent actor (he also played Druitt on Sanctuary).

 

[Joelist]

I would be a little more fine grained - the Wraith have some vampiric qualities but are not vampires. They basically eat humans. They don't turn humans into Wraith or do any number of other vampire things. Plus they look pretty nasty so you wouldn't get the "teen heartthrob" aspect too much of recent vampire media has featured.

Todd was nice because he was still an enemy - and a true badass even among Wraith. Despite that, he was more like an "honorable enemy" - he did not view humans merely as food like so many of his brethren, and as such was able to successfully forge and maintain a sort of detente with Atlantis that even had short term alliances. Unlike most of his brethren also, he seemed to have a more long range view of the future for the Wraith - at some point they needed another method of sustenance if the race was to prosper but their origin from Iratus Bugs that had fed too often on humans meant that they very specifically fed on HUMAN bioenergy. So he had a conundrum.

 

[Rac80]

I have always been of the opinion that the wraiths like todd (as opposed to the "drones" ) were Ancients who were looking for immortality without having to ascend....thus we got the wraith.


OM1 - at least the wraith didn't sparkle...

 

[Overmind One]

I have always been of the opinion that the wraiths like todd (as opposed to the "drones" ) were Ancients who were looking for immortality without having to ascend....thus we got the wraith.


OM1 - at least the wraith didn't sparkle...

True...but they did twinkle a bit! I liked them in season 1 better than the later seasons because they had mind powers and they were more mysterious. Later on, they just became almost allies in the way that Klingons and The Federation were allies later.

 

[Overmind One]

I would be a little more fine grained - the Wraith have some vampiric qualities but are not vampires. They basically eat humans. They don't turn humans into Wraith or do any number of other vampire things. Plus they look pretty nasty so you wouldn't get the "teen heartthrob" aspect too much of recent vampire media has featured

They are not traditional vampires, but they are definitely derived from vampires. The way they feed is not by eating humans. They "suck the life" out of them and leave a shell which is basically the same as an old mummy. They spoke of "taking years" from humans, not how they taste after barbecuing them. . Like I said, the time context of Atlantis had all sorts of vampire shows going on in other shows. Like now, the trend is zombies. Helix does not have traditional zombies, but the "vectors" are definitely derived from zombies. The idea was to appeal to the zombie crowd. Remember, NuBSG was not established yet, and it came out the same time Atlantis did. The hot trend was still vampires.

Todd was nice because he was still an enemy - and a true badass even among Wraith. Despite that, he was more like an "honorable enemy" - he did not view humans merely as food like so many of his brethren, and as such was able to successfully forge and maintain a sort of detente with Atlantis that even had short term alliances. Unlike most of his brethren also, he seemed to have a more long range view of the future for the Wraith - at some point they needed another method of sustenance if the race was to prosper but their origin from Iratus Bugs that had fed too often on humans meant that they very specifically fed on HUMAN bioenergy. So he had a conundrum.

To me, the bolded is part of what weighed the show down. Why develop the Wraith or alliances with them when you have an entire galaxy to explore? The city itself was explored less than the Wraith hive ships! The Wraith should have been a passing but ever-present threat, remained mysterious and none of them should have been developed to the point where they had names and relationships with their food (humans). We needed more alien races from some of the other solar systems in Pegasus. I never got the feeling we were in another complete galaxy. It seemed more like the Pegasus was just a few planets populated by humans as farms for food for the Wraith. It made everything in Pegasus seem small and confined. In Star Trek Voyager, for instance, we get the scope of the size of the Milky Way by them being in the Delta Quadrant for several years, with a starship capable of Warp 9 and it would still take 70 years. In Pegasus, it seemed like we were just in one tiny sliver of the Pegasus. The constant focus on the Wraith was weighing it down. I have now progressed through seasons 1, 2 and part of 3. I watched as the Wraits suddenly lost their mind control powers, their mystery and their malevolence. They just seemed like any other generic alien on halfway cordial terms with humans, albeit not a trusted relationship.[/quote]

 

[Joelist]

I am not seeing the whole idea that the Wraith were made vampiric to capitalize on the pop culture vampire trend - they had none of the qualities that the pop culture vampire fans would find appealing. They were not sparkly, definitely not "hot" in any real way and not the kind of characters that teen angst could be projected onto in any real way. And yes, what they did was in effect eating humans.

As to the lack of lots of aliens, SG-1 had the exact same makeup and it was intentional. Remember part of the premise of both shows is that there are VERY few alien life forms in these galaxies and that the reason most worlds are inhabited by humans is that the Ancients seeded these galaxies to that effect. This is a fundamental difference in premise from, say, Trek. When you get down to it, how many actual aliens are there in the SG universe?

- G'oauld
- Una
- Wraith
- Asgard

You can maybe add Replicators to the list, but can also argue about whether the Wraith are actually aliens or rather mutations of the Ancients.

As to the Wraith themselves, I guess we'll just have to differ in that I don't think they weighed the show down. That they did not spend enough airtime on exploring Atlantis I agree with - but doing that did not mean playing down the Wraith was needed. In one way I like the Wraith better than the G'oauld. The G'oauld came off pretty cartoonish a lot of the time while the Wraith were a lot more blunt and straightforward. The EXCEPTIONS were the rare times they were able to come to some sort of accommodation - the rule was they were killers and enemies.

And of the exceptions, one (the "alliance" at the end of Season 2 with Michael) was a disaster and they had to fight the hives anyway. The other was a couple of very short term alliances with Todd. This is where Todd was a good character as a Wraith - he was able to cooperate in the short term with humans but never stopped being a Wraith.

As to downgrading them, yes the show did that and did it too fast. Unfortunately, once the Daedalus had Asgard weapons and especially when the Apollo joined it in Pegasus the Wraith as a direct threat to Atlantis were no longer viable. The Asgard beam weapons were just too strong and even a Hive had no practical defense against them. As a result, the Daedalus versus Hive fights in the Season 2 premiere and Season 3 premiere were exciting because it the Daedalus was a bit of an underdog. After that such a fight was a wipeout. But this is part of the bigger argument that Unending (Sg-1 series finale) did damage to the franchise by making mankind too advanced technologically.

 

[Overmind One]

I am not seeing the whole idea that the Wraith were made vampiric to capitalize on the pop culture vampire trend - they had none of the qualities that the pop culture vampire fans would find appealing. They were not sparkly, definitely not "hot" in any real way and not the kind of characters that teen angst could be projected onto in any real way. And yes, what they did was in effect eating humans.

Brad has no idea what "pop culture" is. He did his best to interpret what "vampire" is, and that became the Wraith. I do not know anyone who does not see the obvious comparison between the Wraith and vampires. It is all over Gateworld and elsewhere, and they were even called "space vampires" by many blogs. They were not sparkly or hot, but neither are zombies. Sparkly vampires are a new pop culture thing. Brad would not have been able to get that one right.I have to disagree with your assessment that the Wraith ate humans. They consumed their life force, which is "eating" in the most basic sense, but not eating as humans or any other creature with a digestive system would do. As in, masticating, slicing and cooking and chewing. Even the tiniest creatures eat in this fashion. The organ on their palms facilitated the transfer of life force. I am not saying they were vampires, I am saying they are heavily based on them, and they are. Even their shipsare spooky like a haunted house.

As to the lack of lots of aliens, SG-1 had the exact same makeup and it was intentional. Remember part of the premise of both shows is that there are VERY few alien life forms in these galaxies and that the reason most worlds are inhabited by humans is that the Ancients seeded these galaxies to that effect. This is a fundamental difference in premise from, say, Trek. When you get down to it, how many actual aliens are there in the SG universe?

- G'oauld
- Una
- Wraith
- Asgard

You can maybe add Replicators to the list, but can also argue about whether the Wraith are actually aliens or rather mutations of the Ancients.

It isnt that complicated. What I am saying is that watching SG-1, we got more variety in aliens, even human alien species like the Lucien Alliance and the Tok'ra and the Tollan and the people of Abydos. Counting the species does not convey what I am trying to point out. I am saying the Atlantis' universe seemed much much smaller than the SG-1 universe. I almost felt that Atlantis and a handful of planets and Wraith was all that was there. Not literally, but the FEELING was exactly that for me.

As to the Wraith themselves, I guess we'll just have to differ in that I don't think they weighed the show down. That they did not spend enough airtime on exploring Atlantis I agree with - but doing that did not mean playing down the Wraith was needed. In one way I like the Wraith better than the G'oauld. The G'oauld came off pretty cartoonish a lot of the time while the Wraith were a lot more blunt and straightforward. The EXCEPTIONS were the rare times they were able to come to some sort of accommodation - the rule was they were killers and enemies.

And of the exceptions, one (the "alliance" at the end of Season 2 with Michael) was a disaster and they had to fight the hives anyway. The other was a couple of very short term alliances with Todd. This is where Todd was a good character as a Wraith - he was able to cooperate in the short term with humans but never stopped being a Wraith.

As to downgrading them, yes the show did that and did it too fast. Unfortunately, once the Daedalus had Asgard weapons and especially when the Apollo joined it in Pegasus the Wraith as a direct threat to Atlantis were no longer viable. The Asgard beam weapons were just too strong and even a Hive had no practical defense against them. As a result, the Daedalus versus Hive fights in the Season 2 premiere and Season 3 premiere were exciting because it the Daedalus was a bit of an underdog. After that such a fight was a wipeout. But this is part of the bigger argument that Unending (Sg-1 series finale) did damage to the franchise by making mankind too advanced technologically.

The Michael arc was horrible. I thought the thing with Todd could have been avoided too. I loved the character, but that was because of the actor. By the end of Season 3, the Wraith were almost like the Klingons.

 

[Joelist]

I think we mostly agree, I just liked the Wraith more than you did. And Todd was a classic character. I still chuckle at all the fan-shipping stuff that paired off Sheppard and Todd (you can find some on this forum too). Those two did have a weird sort of friendship. But the "bromance" was Sheppard and McKay...

Overall I liked SGA, and strongly felt it got prematurely ended just to clear the decks for SGU.

 

[Overmind One]

I think we mostly agree, I just liked the Wraith more than you did. And Todd was a classic character. I still chuckle at all the fan-shipping stuff that paired off Sheppard and Todd (you can find some on this forum too). Those two did have a weird sort of friendship. But the "bromance" was Sheppard and McKay...

Overall I liked SGA, and strongly felt it got prematurely ended just to clear the decks for SGU.

Yes, we mostly agree. I especially agree with the bolded. We KNOW why that happened. NuBSG was heading for cancellation, and SGU was going to take up the orphaned audience. That was their plan, but it failed. NuBSG did not even have as good ratings as Atlantis did! It was a dumb move to kill it for SGU. I am almost finished with watching the series, and it is overall a very enjoyable show. In many ways better than SG-1. Im still partial to SG-1 though! But at the top of my list is still the original movie.

 

[Joelist]

A dumb move indeed - and SyFy still hasn't recovered from the SGA/SGU fiasco. They basically killed off a franchise that was giving them two shows (SG-1 and SGA) that were both delivering solid, profitable ratings. First they prematurely sunset SG-1 (they should have properly resolved the Ori first) then prematurely sunset SGA to launch SGU.

Imagine if they had let SGA run normally and instead of making SGU soap-fi they had made it more like a natural outgrowth of SGA?

Unfortunately instead we now get shows like Defiance and they are premiering a REALLY stupid sounding show called Dominion, which is based off a very bad and dumb film called Legion.

 

[Overmind One]

A dumb move indeed - and SyFy still hasn't recovered from the SGA/SGU fiasco. They basically killed off a franchise that was giving them two shows (SG-1 and SGA) that were both delivering solid, profitable ratings. First they prematurely sunset SG-1 (they should have properly resolved the Ori first) then prematurely sunset SGA to launch SGU.

Imagine if they had let SGA run normally and instead of making SGU soap-fi they had made it more like a natural outgrowth of SGA?

Unfortunately instead we now get shows like Defiance and they are premiering a REALLY stupid sounding show called Dominion, which is based off a very bad and dumb film called Legion.

Legion??? Believe it or not, such a series MIGHT draw an audience considering the demographic it would appeal to. But they would have to be very careful not to pigeonhole it. Anyway, regarding Atlantis, there was so much more to tell. Having now completed my complete rewatch of SG-1 and Atlantis and the first three episodes of SGU (I did not want to risk being bored to death), I see what happened.

Seasons 1-3 of SG-1 had lots and lots of EXPLORATION. Travel to new worlds through the stargate. To me, that was the spirit of the show and it's core. The characters became important through familiarity. But the show did not start out showing us Jack's personal life, or Samantha Carter taking a shower or cooking dinner. We did not see Teal'c and his family life with the Jaffa. Not until the exploration stopped. Seasons 4-6 involved more interpersonal stuff within SG-1, the military, the IAO and the Goa'uld and Tok'ra. Season 6 was the introduction of earth starships and the Treknology. The remainder of the seasons were character vehicles, and introduction of the Ori, then recycled story plots. SGA was fresh, new and started out with advanced technology because they were on Atlantis and in a new galaxy. But instead of centering on exploration, they focused on the Wraith, on interpersonal interactions with Teyla and her people, between Weir and Sheppard, and between McKay and Sheppard. Later, it just shifted that interpersonal crap to include the Wraith, shipping between characters, more Wraith, more interpersonal stuff. It was entertaining, but it had moved away from Stargate and exploration. SGU could have been about exploration, but instead became a story of survival. Survival of characters you did not care if they survived or not.

All and all, I am not disappointed that Stargate is being rebooted. Tonight, I am going to watch the Stargate movie again. Also interesting is the fact that Devlin and Emmerichs story Necropolis: City of the Dead is basically the same story as Atlantis with the city ship. Only it was found beneath the Great Pyramid. That means we could get something similar to Atlantis, even from Emmerich and Devlin. Thankfully, I do not think either of them would dream anything like SGU up, even whilst drunk.