The Apple vs Amazon Battle Continues (aka "Apple Wants A Slice of the Kindle Book Purchase Pie")

[Illiterati]

Methinks this will backfire on Apple. They want people to buy ebooks using the iBooks reader. That doesn't fly with me. I have Kindle installed on my desktop, my two laptops, my Droid phone and my iPad and iPod Touch (in addition to having a Kindle - yes, I'm silly. So what?)

http://money.cnn.com/2011/06/15/technology/apple_kindle/index.htm?source=cnn_bin&hpt=hp_bn3

As I read a LOT, this will affect how much I use my Apple products to a large degree.

Twits.

 

[Overmind One]

Methinks this will backfire on Apple. They want people to buy ebooks using the iBooks reader. That doesn't fly with me. I have Kindle installed on my desktop, my two laptops, my Droid phone and my iPad and iPod Touch (in addition to having a Kindle - yes, I'm silly. So what?)

http://money.cnn.com/2011/06/15/technology/apple_kindle/index.htm?source=cnn_bin&hpt=hp_bn3

As I read a LOT, this will affect how much I use my Apple products to a large degree.

Twits.

I LOVE KINDLE! I love my Kindle app. Apple will only take it and round the corners and make it look more artsy, but it doesnt NEED to be artsy. It just needs to work like a book does, and it does that very very well. The only caveat is the lack of color pictures ability, but REAL books dont need pictures to tell stories. Im reading the entire Foundation series, and I have even made eBooks from Word files as well as PDF files using Mobipocket Creator which is FREE: http://www.mobipocket.com/en/downloadsoft/productdetailscreator.asp

With it, you can write your own books, or take PDF based books and convert them into eBooks which you then can read with your Kindle. I have bought more books, and it feels like Im walking around with a whole library in my pocket. Apple cant touch that. They arent strong enough to compete with the FREE Kindle app fpor PC and smartphones and tablets.

Apple's "walled garden" approach (you made that up!) is now going to be a fail. That strategy cannot work in an arena where there is Android which is open source, and the app market will explode, since all the developer's tools are free and updated regularly (like all flavors of Linux). Add that to the ever expanding ways you can get Android, on so many different types of devices and phones...Apple has already been knocked to second place.

 

[Illiterati]

Actually, you can create ebooks with color pictures with the program you shared here. I was checking out the idea of making an ebook of my photography and got great results.

They show up perfectly in color on Kindle apps.

 

[Overmind One]

Actually, you can create ebooks with color pictures with the program you shared here. I was checking out the idea of making an ebook of my photography and got great results.

They show up perfectly in color on Kindle apps.

REALLY? I didnt know that! I am gonna try to make an ebook with a color picture to test it. THANKS!

 

[Mr. A]

I wouldn't laugh Apple out of this one yet. Lately they seem not to be able to do anything wrong - business-wise speaking, of course

 

[Aragon101]

As someone who deals with Apple Vs PC Vs Linux Vs Android etc etc every day, i can wholeheartedly say that Apple is still going to grow despite the obvious advantages everywhere else.

Why? Because Apple is stupidly simple to use. Windows is like jumping through hoops despite being a great corporate tool and dominating the market. Much more compatible, and little restrictions when it comes to programs and apps. Same with Android.

Linux does not have the centralized marketing strategy Apple does. Yes, Linux and Mac OSX are quite similar, but Linux also requires MORE WORK which is an instant turn off. Most people just want to sit down and USE it, they don't want to deal with a dozen smaller issues such as anti-virus, compiling a kernel, authorizing programs, custom installing programs, downloading drivers and plugins and whathave you, or any such time waster on Linux or Windows.

Another thing about Apple is their competitive marketing. They diss Windows any chance they get, and this leads to the growing problem of "smug" amongst certain Apple uses (not all, but some, and they're growing). You get the same on PC side when you have people like me telling people "Why buy a Macbook Pro? You can get a 15 inch Lenovo with better specs including graphics card for like 30-40% less including the three year warranty."

I had one client the other day dissing Windows machines for being nowhere near as strong as the Mac Pro. When i chuckled and showed him an HP Server which utterly flattened the Mac Pro in terms of power (comparing Mac Pro's 64 gigs of ram to an HP Server's 192 gigs of Ram and RAIDed SSDs) and wasn't exactly more expensive, he denied that it was an actual unit anyone would get since "servers are not the same as workstations". Then i showed him the Mac Pro server which the only difference is the damned OS.

Apple is going to end up owning a significant portion of the market because it's 'simplicity' and 'intuitiveness' are huge appeals to people who don't know technology all that well. BUT, Windows is still the dominator despite the obvious advantages of other OSs. Overmind i know you use Linux, but realistically speaking, how many people actually know how to use Linux for simple thing like writing, forum posting, pictures, and e-mail? Maybe some music and movie watching too. It's a little crazy to expect them to install Linux on a machine when all they do is read twilight fanfiction, listen to emo bands, write their own twilight fanfiction and upload stupid photos of themselves and their friends to a CIA-sponsered Facebook/Twitter.

 

[Overmind One]

As someone who deals with Apple Vs PC Vs Linux Vs Android etc etc every day, i can wholeheartedly say that Apple is still going to grow despite the obvious advantages everywhere else.

Why? Because Apple is stupidly simple to use. Windows is like jumping through hoops despite being a great corporate tool and dominating the market. Much more compatible, and little restrictions when it comes to programs and apps. Same with Android.

Linux does not have the centralized marketing strategy Apple does. Yes, Linux and Mac OSX are quite similar, but Linux also requires MORE WORK which is an instant turn off. Most people just want to sit down and USE it, they don't want to deal with a dozen smaller issues such as anti-virus, compiling a kernel, authorizing programs, custom installing programs, downloading drivers and plugins and whathave you, or any such time waster on Linux or Windows.

Another thing about Apple is their competitive marketing. They diss Windows any chance they get, and this leads to the growing problem of "smug" amongst certain Apple uses (not all, but some, and they're growing). You get the same on PC side when you have people like me telling people "Why buy a Macbook Pro? You can get a 15 inch Lenovo with better specs including graphics card for like 30-40% less including the three year warranty."

I had one client the other day dissing Windows machines for being nowhere near as strong as the Mac Pro. When i chuckled and showed him an HP Server which utterly flattened the Mac Pro in terms of power (comparing Mac Pro's 64 gigs of ram to an HP Server's 192 gigs of Ram and RAIDed SSDs) and wasn't exactly more expensive, he denied that it was an actual unit anyone would get since "servers are not the same as workstations". Then i showed him the Mac Pro server which the only difference is the damned OS.

Apple is going to end up owning a significant portion of the market because it's 'simplicity' and 'intuitiveness' are huge appeals to people who don't know technology all that well. BUT, Windows is still the dominator despite the obvious advantages of other OSs. Overmind i know you use Linux, but realistically speaking, how many people actually know how to use Linux for simple thing like writing, forum posting, pictures, and e-mail? Maybe some music and movie watching too. It's a little crazy to expect them to install Linux on a machine when all they do is read twilight fanfiction, listen to emo bands, write their own twilight fanfiction and upload stupid photos of themselves and their friends to a CIA-sponsered Facebook/Twitter.

That is all fine and well, but the particular flavor of Linux that is killing Apple and is responsible for Apple losing market share (more than 20% in 2 years) is Google's Android. This isnt "projected" growth, its already there. Apple has less than 40% of the total worldwide smartphone market (Android is 42% and growing fast), and is quickly losing its parity in the tablet market. Apple is losing in every computing segment because of Android, not Linux in general. To me, it sounds like you are unfamiliar with Linux if you said this:

but realistically speaking, how many people actually know how to use Linux for simple thing like writing, forum posting, pictures, and e-mail?

The out of the box Linux installation (which is easy) comes with a full office suite, Firefox browser, Image viewer/editor and email client which supports POP and Exchange and all the other ways (LDAP, IMAP). But Android takes the Linux OS and changed it into an Apple OS killer (which is also derived from Linux). Apple is in a rapid shrinking phase, not a growth phase. The trend is not looking good for Apple if you use the past three years as a measure. Android is simply more powerful, easier to use and costs less than half the price of any similar Apple product. Unless Apple changes its marketing strategy, it will end up like Rolex. Only a symbol of [insert social meaning], not a mark of a smart buyer. Mechanical watches are simply inferior to digital watches. ALL of them. The best multi-million-dollar diamond encrusted Rolex watch is less accurate than a $6.00 plastic digital watch in bubble wrap in the convenience store. But isnt the reason to have a watch to tell the time? Yep, it is. So what are the reasons for buying a Rolex? Apple products are the same way. They LOOK cool, but when it comes down to doing the job, Android is far superior as a Linux based OS.

 

[Joelist]

I agree that Linux (as Android) has found its niche in portable devices like cellphones and tablets. The way in which iOS is getting swamped by it is an example. iOS will probably still hold sway in Tablets for a while until Android for Tablets matures and the hardware OEMs realize they need to shave the price to get into the market. On desktops and laptops Apple growth has been stalled for a while now as Win 7 is better than OSX Snow Leopard and Apple is getting nailed over the "Apple Tax" (the huge markup on hardware just because it has that Apple logo on it).

 

[Mr. A]

I agree that Linux (as Android) has found its niche in portable devices like cellphones and tablets. The way in which iOS is getting swamped by it is an example. iOS will probably still hold sway in Tablets for a while until Android for Tablets matures and the hardware OEMs realize they need to shave the price to get into the market. On desktops and laptops Apple growth has been stalled for a while now as Win 7 is better than OSX Snow Leopard and Apple is getting nailed over the "Apple Tax" (the huge markup on hardware just because it has that Apple logo on it).

You were doing well up to that point...

 

[Joelist]

You were doing well up to that point...

It's true - Win 7 is better than Snow Leopard. Security is the same, reliability is better (Snow Leopard has had freeze and crash issues since its release) and usability also favors Win 7. I had friends on OSX who tried to use Snow Leopard for a goodly long time then finally either degraded back to Leopard or (in 2 cases) left Apple altogether after seeing what Win 7 does.

 

[Mr. A]

It's true - Win 7 is better than Snow Leopard. Security is the same, reliability is better (Snow Leopard has had freeze and crash issues since its release) and usability also favors Win 7. I had friends on OSX who tried to use Snow Leopard for a goodly long time then finally either degraded back to Leopard or (in 2 cases) left Apple altogether after seeing what Win 7 does.

Yeah, if you're into tinkering with the OS and programming, creating .bat files (just read the IP thread), sure. But if you're just a user, ANY Mac OS beats any Windows operating system hands down in ANY aspect. Just not expandability and flexibility. I work with all systems. As a matter of fact, I never turn off my desktop mac for months or quit any applications (Firefox always stays on with 20-40 tabs open at once) - and it still runs stable, with Leopard and Snow Leopard. Never crashes. Try doing that with any Windows system on a PC (not talking about servers here).
Nobody I know would ever move to Windows unless they came from it in the first place. My wife doesn't touch her Win laptop anymore other than to watch DVDs in bed after I got her a MacBook Pro.

 

[Illiterati]

Yeah, if you're into tinkering with the OS and programming, creating .bat files (just read the IP thread), sure. But if you're just a user, ANY Mac OS beats any Windows operating system hands down in ANY aspect. Just not expandability and flexibility. I work with all systems. As a matter of fact, I never turn off my desktop mac for months or quit any applications (Firefox always stays on with 20-40 tabs open at once) - and it still runs stable, with Leopard and Snow Leopard. Never crashes. Try doing that with any Windows system on a PC (not talking about servers here).
Nobody I know would ever move to Windows unless they came from it in the first place. My wife doesn't touch her Win laptop anymore other than to watch DVDs in bed after I got her a MacBook Pro.

Well, I'm one, then...

I started on a Mac and went to a PC.

Never looked back.

 

[Joelist]

Yeah, if you're into tinkering with the OS and programming, creating .bat files (just read the IP thread), sure. But if you're just a user, ANY Mac OS beats any Windows operating system hands down in ANY aspect. Just not expandability and flexibility. I work with all systems. As a matter of fact, I never turn off my desktop mac for months or quit any applications (Firefox always stays on with 20-40 tabs open at once) - and it still runs stable, with Leopard and Snow Leopard. Never crashes. Try doing that with any Windows system on a PC (not talking about servers here).
Nobody I know would ever move to Windows unless they came from it in the first place. My wife doesn't touch her Win laptop anymore other than to watch DVDs in bed after I got her a MacBook Pro.

No, flat out usability. The whole .bat file thing only happened in an isolated case regarding a VERY old PC game that was not written with Win 7's much more advanced graphical layer in mind. Apple has had similar issues with software written for older Mac OS iterations either not running at all or (when pre OSX) only running very slowly in an emulator.

Let's not degenerate this into a PC-Mac religious dispute....

 

[Mr. A]

No, flat out usability. The whole .bat file thing only happened in an isolated case regarding a VERY old PC game that was not written with Win 7's much more advanced graphical layer in mind. Apple has had similar issues with software written for older Mac OS iterations either not running at all or (when pre OSX) only running very slowly in an emulator.

Let's not degenerate this into a PC-Mac religious dispute....

No, let's not. Let's debate this instead without resorting to those kinds of platitudes.

This is not a religious dispute, Joelist. We're talking facts here. I worked several years as an analyst before moving on to another field - due to my job I have to use a Windows PC on the field. I use Macs privately. Windows is more powerful, but it is certainly neither user-friendly nor intuitive. And it breaks and crashes. Windows 7 as well. Very often indeed. Like I said, I just need to leave the laptop on and it accumulates so much garbage that it ends up crashing. I offered you all the anedoctal evidence I can.
You are an IT guy, of course you find Windows usable! But talk to people like my wife sitting next to me, my non-geek friends, writers, many members of my family. My mom just learned to use computers on a Windows machine (because she is a writer) a few years ago. She recently bought herself a Mac against my advice even (I always say stick with what you know) - and now she tells me she's finally having fun and never looked back.
If you know your way around computers, Windows is great (Linux is better), but if you're Joe blow and you just want to use a computer with no hassles, then Max OS is still the intuitive, user-friendly system of reference. Including Snow Leopard.
The price for usability is, of course, flexibility. When some things don't work, well... then they just don't work. But like I said, non-gamers who just want to write documents, file and correct pictures and surf the internet are perfectly happy to pay that price if it means not having to befriend a computer geek or resort to the services of a technician. If it weren't so, people wouldn't be paying more for Apples, and I'd be using the same OS at home as I have to on my business PC.

 

[Overmind One]

No, let's not. Let's debate this instead without resorting to those kinds of platitudes.

This is not a religious dispute, Joelist. We're talking facts here. I worked several years as an analyst before moving on to another field - due to my job I have to use a Windows PC on the field. I use Macs privately. Windows is more powerful, but it is certainly neither user-friendly nor intuitive. And it breaks and crashes. Windows 7 as well. Very often indeed. Like I said, I just need to leave the laptop on and it accumulates so much garbage that it ends up crashing. I offered you all the anedoctal evidence I can.
You are an IT guy, of course you find Windows usable! But talk to people like my wife sitting next to me, my non-geek friends, writers, many members of my family. My mom just learned to use computers on a Windows machine (because she is a writer) a few years ago. She recently bought herself a Mac against my advice even (I always say stick with what you know) - and now she tells me she's finally having fun and never looked back.
If you know your way around computers, Windows is great (Linux is better), but if you're Joe blow and you just want to use a computer with no hassles, then Max OS is still the intuitive, user-friendly system of reference. Including Snow Leopard.
The price for usability is, of course, flexibility. When some things don't work, well... then they just don't work. But like I said, non-gamers who just want to write documents, file and correct pictures and surf the internet are perfectly happy to pay that price if it means not having to befriend a computer geek or resort to the services of a technician. If it weren't so, people wouldn't be paying more for Apples, and I'd be using the same OS at home as I have to on my business PC.

I have to agree there. But there arent as many people who need that rock solid stability in the mainstream except artists who need vast computing power for rendering and security, and to access those art programs that are made just for Apple. But for an entrepreneur, or for running a multi-user environment with shared resoures, Apple is way out there. Arguably, Linux Ubuntu is a viable alternative to a Windows workstation, but for usability and FLEXIBILITY, Windows 7 is all over Apple. I myself run MAC OSX 10.6.2 in a virtual machine within Windows 7.

But if Android morphs into a full operating system for PC (and it will), Apple could be completely destroyed. Apple is the best example of open source going closed and being made proprietary (a walled garden). But Android is still open source, which means it will easily push Apple out the door. Since MAC OSX and Android are both built on the Linux kernel, Android can continue to use Linux open source depositories to update the kernel. Apple doesnt use those depositories, and they dont have the benefit of open source developers making new apps at a greater pace. Apple's iOS (iPhone and iPad and iPod/Touch/etc) is inferior to Android, even Android 2.0 (we are at Android 2.3). But Android doesnt come as a PC OS yet. If Google does with Android what Apple did with OSX, they are a goner.

 

[Joelist]

No, let's not. Let's debate this instead without resorting to those kinds of platitudes.

This is not a religious dispute, Joelist. We're talking facts here. I worked several years as an analyst before moving on to another field - due to my job I have to use a Windows PC on the field. I use Macs privately. Windows is more powerful, but it is certainly neither user-friendly nor intuitive. And it breaks and crashes. Windows 7 as well. Very often indeed. Like I said, I just need to leave the laptop on and it accumulates so much garbage that it ends up crashing. I offered you all the anedoctal evidence I can.
You are an IT guy, of course you find Windows usable! But talk to people like my wife sitting next to me, my non-geek friends, writers, many members of my family. My mom just learned to use computers on a Windows machine (because she is a writer) a few years ago. She recently bought herself a Mac against my advice even (I always say stick with what you know) - and now she tells me she's finally having fun and never looked back.
If you know your way around computers, Windows is great (Linux is better), but if you're Joe blow and you just want to use a computer with no hassles, then Max OS is still the intuitive, user-friendly system of reference. Including Snow Leopard.
The price for usability is, of course, flexibility. When some things don't work, well... then they just don't work. But like I said, non-gamers who just want to write documents, file and correct pictures and surf the internet are perfectly happy to pay that price if it means not having to befriend a computer geek or resort to the services of a technician. If it weren't so, people wouldn't be paying more for Apples, and I'd be using the same OS at home as I have to on my business PC.

I suspect we both have anecdotal experiences shaped by the people we are around frequently. Ironically, even though I am a semi-IT type my circle of friends is decidedly non IT overall. Several of them went Apple and ultimately did not like it. They disliked the high cost, the lack of programs for their own things they do, they all HATED iWork (I was able to help them there by pointing them to Office Mac) and also they disliked Safari (again was able to point them to Firefox which is an improvement). When the alternative was the brutally user unfriendly Vista or the too old XP that was not enough to cause a switch.

Then came Win 7 with its new UI. They discovered that they could perform operations in Win 7 almost exactly the same way they did in OSX. And Win 7's more advanced graphics layer meant things outright looked sharper (OSX did an update to Snow Leopard that partially caught up). Plus all of their gadgets interfaced properly with the computer. Over the space of about 6 months they all wound up eBaying their Macs and getting PC laptops.

Plus, I'm a former Mac person myself. I used to do OSX at home at Win 2000 / XP at work. My favorite cut of OSX - the one that worked the best and froze the least - was Tiger. I finally left Apple's platform after discovering I could use Win 7 the same way I used Tiger, have many more programs to choose from and get much more powerful hardware for a lower price. So now my home laptop is a dual boot with Win 7 and Ubuntu 11.04.

 

[Joelist]

I have to agree there. But there arent as many people who need that rock solid stability in the mainstream except artists who need vast computing power for rendering and security, and to access those art programs that are made just for Apple. But for an entrepreneur, or for running a multi-user environment with shared resoures, Apple is way out there. Arguably, Linux Ubuntu is a viable alternative to a Windows workstation, but for usability and FLEXIBILITY, Windows 7 is all over Apple. I myself run MAC OSX 10.6.2 in a virtual machine within Windows 7.

But if Android morphs into a full operating system for PC (and it will), Apple could be completely destroyed. Apple is the best example of open source going closed and being made proprietary (a walled garden). But Android is still open source, which means it will easily push Apple out the door. Since MAC OSX and Android are both built on the Linux kernel, Android can continue to use Linux open source depositories to update the kernel. Apple doesnt use those depositories, and they dont have the benefit of open source developers making new apps at a greater pace. Apple's iOS (iPhone and iPad and iPod/Touch/etc) is inferior to Android, even Android 2.0 (we are at Android 2.3). But Android doesnt come as a PC OS yet. If Google does with Android what Apple did with OSX, they are a goner.

Pretty much on point. One thing though.

OSX is not Linux. It is a customized version of Unix itself (specifically a branch off of BSD with a highly specialized microkernel architecture). Here is an image that shows the Unix "tree" - it's really very interesting.

 

[Mr. A]

I have to agree there. But there arent as many people who need that rock solid stability in the mainstream except artists who need vast computing power for rendering and security, and to access those art programs that are made just for Apple. But for an entrepreneur, or for running a multi-user environment with shared resoures, Apple is way out there. Arguably, Linux Ubuntu is a viable alternative to a Windows workstation, but for usability and FLEXIBILITY, Windows 7 is all over Apple. I myself run MAC OSX 10.6.2 in a virtual machine within Windows 7.

But if Android morphs into a full operating system for PC (and it will), Apple could be completely destroyed. Apple is the best example of open source going closed and being made proprietary (a walled garden). But Android is still open source, which means it will easily push Apple out the door. Since MAC OSX and Android are both built on the Linux kernel, Android can continue to use Linux open source depositories to update the kernel. Apple doesnt use those depositories, and they dont have the benefit of open source developers making new apps at a greater pace. Apple's iOS (iPhone and iPad and iPod/Touch/etc) is inferior to Android, even Android 2.0 (we are at Android 2.3). But Android doesnt come as a PC OS yet. If Google does with Android what Apple did with OSX, they are a goner.

Yes indeed.
You do make a living among others out of fixing people's computer problems, cleaning up their PCs, beefing up security and optimizing their systems. Am I right? And I'm assuming not many of your customers are Mac users...

 

[Overmind One]

Pretty much on point. One thing though.

OSX is not Linux. It is a customized version of Unix itself (specifically a branch off of BSD with a highly specialized microkernel architecture). Here is an image that shows the Unix "tree" - it's really very interesting.

View attachment 4572

I never said OSX was linux, I said it was linux/unix BASED, and it is and always has been. Apple takes the kernel and changes it to make it proprietary by changing key crypto components to make it so. Similar to the commercial version of RHL (RedHat Linux). If I am not mistaken, that chart is in the UNIX documentation. , right?. Linux is the closest to pure Unix.

 

[Joelist]

I never said OSX was linux, I said it was linux/unix BASED, and it is and always has been. Apple takes the kernel and changes it to make it proprietary by changing key crypto components to make it so. Similar to the commercial version of RHL (RedHat Linux). If I am not mistaken, that chart is in the UNIX documentation. , right?. Linux is the closest to pure Unix.

I was looking at where you said OSX is built on the Linux kernel. which is actually is not. OSX has a specialized microkernel that is the child of Mach (from Carnegie Mellon). Linux uses a monolithic kernel, and in fact there have been debates back and forth on the whole "which kernel model is better" topic.