I saw this video and it really opened my mind. What exactly were the Rebels fighting for? What made the Empire the bad guy? Could the Rebels in Star Wars be represented by the Taliban in the real world? Watch the whole thing...
Star Wars: Was the Empire right? Interesting perspective...
- Thread starter Overmind One
- Start date
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
the rebels were representative of chaos and maintaining things as they had been for thousands of years--chaotic
the Jedi order profited from this chaos. it was well funded and had the pick of youth from the practice of state abduction of children (aka padawans)
the sith have always been about order and structure. the sith as a organization are not evil. there have been individuals who have been evil, but all they really do is allow the natural way of things to proceed. the jedi hampered the natural way of order by insisting on structuring everything according to their ways.
i could on and on, this topic has been discussed for awhile in other web sites
the rebels--who are the rebels exactly? their organized political core is built around a group of about 6 imperial senators who were pushed away into the minority opinion in the senate. Mon Mothma, Bail Organa
Mothma, and the others, were upset over things like Palpatine being granted -democratically by a senate vote mind you- very strong executive powers. This move not only empowered him ore and helped him to further his parallel Sith aims, but it also brought more order from the chaos of the Clone wars and the disorganized system of republican governance.
to relate to our world (as the guy in the video did) the rebels and their leaders were basically arguing that confederate argument of 'state's rights' as reason for revolt. the SW's rebels wanted the old republic, decentralized and weak in order to have a type of federation of independent planets-- just like the one the republic had just defeated!
in "legends" the non canon SW's stuff--many former CIS fighters joined up with the Rebel alliance.
the empire-save for tis top leadership who we know has had ulterior motives- and its bureaucracy was all about establishing order. bringing impoverished planets up out of poverty- like Corellia. and has the vid stated, giving ppl with no hope, some hope and structure-training and education, by enlistment into imperial service
here is where the dreaded books (
) come in handy. in books like aftermath and from a certain point of view we get to see other perspectives from regular people in imperial servicethey are not evil, they are concerned with their '9-5' and getting home to see their friends and family
like i said, there is a a lot more on this, and I have always seen the empire has the stable force in SW's
i never saw the rebellion as heroic. yes, individual acts of heroism but as a potential system of galactic governance-unworthy
idk, maybe these ideas came from Lucas way back when he was young. was he an active part of the 60's counter culture? active or passive, these ideas of demonizing the leadership and its actions to overthrow and bring about chaos (like so many hippies have become anarchists) is rooted in our 60's and early 70's counter culture
the rebels were representative of chaos and maintaining things as they had been for thousands of years--chaotic
the Jedi order profited from this chaos. it was well funded and had the pick of youth from the practice of state abduction of children (aka padawans)
the sith have always been about order and structure. the sith as a organization are not evil. there have been individuals who have been evil, but all they really do is allow the natural way of things to proceed. the jedi hampered the natural way of order by insisting on structuring everything according to their ways.
i could on and on, this topic has been discussed for awhile in other web sites
the rebels--who are the rebels exactly? their organized political core is built around a group of about 6 imperial senators who were pushed away into the minority opinion in the senate. Mon Mothma, Bail Organa
Mothma, and the others, were upset over things like Palpatine being granted -democratically by a senate vote mind you- very strong executive powers. This move not only empowered him ore and helped him to further his parallel Sith aims, but it also brought more order from the chaos of the Clone wars and the disorganized system of republican governance.
to relate to our world (as the guy in the video did) the rebels and their leaders were basically arguing that confederate argument of 'state's rights' as reason for revolt. the SW's rebels wanted the old republic, decentralized and weak in order to have a type of federation of independent planets-- just like the one the republic had just defeated!
in "legends" the non canon SW's stuff--many former CIS fighters joined up with the Rebel alliance.
the empire-save for tis top leadership who we know has had ulterior motives- and its bureaucracy was all about establishing order. bringing impoverished planets up out of poverty- like Corellia. and has the vid stated, giving ppl with no hope, some hope and structure-training and education, by enlistment into imperial service
here is where the dreaded books (
they are not evil, they are concerned with their '9-5' and getting home to see their friends and family
like i said, there is a a lot more on this, and I have always seen the empire has the stable force in SW's
i never saw the rebellion as heroic. yes, individual acts of heroism but as a potential system of galactic governance-unworthy
idk, maybe these ideas came from Lucas way back when he was young. was he an active part of the 60's counter culture? active or passive, these ideas of demonizing the leadership and its actions to overthrow and bring about chaos (like so many hippies have become anarchists) is rooted in our 60's and early 70's counter culture
I felt strangely jarred by the thought that if I were living in the Star Wars world, I might have chosen to fight on the side of the Empire and not the Rebels, or been a Sith over a Jedi. But in Star Trek, I would have chosen the Federation over the Maqui.
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
well ,the federation, though they are still independent planets, was well more organized then the republic ever was
the federation is also an entirely secular government where the governance of both the republic and the empire-and to a small degree the new republic and first order, all had some type of religious component in them
there is so much more to, so many small points as to why the empire is not really the bad guy
i brought some up before in past threads
- in the rebellion, seemingly anyone, regardless of rank or experience or training- can just show up and take over because of....?
luke when he bumped pilots all of whom were far more experienced in combat and all had formal flight trng
han, when they made him a 'general'.. what?!?!
same with Lando, 'general Calrissian'. wtf, did he buy his rank?
in the empire it is all regimented and organized
-----------------
the guy who made this vid brought up SOLO and how the empire benefited Han (would he ever have gotten off of his homeworld if not for them?)
how the Imperial presence on Corellia was the only form of law and order there--albeit sparse
in SOLO we didn't see the empire do one classic 'bad guy' thing
on the contrary (as stated in the video)-they gave Han a job, training, and hope to fulfill his promise to his girlfriend
we see the empire be the victim of robbery and murder
IDK, it is well accepted that SOLO had plenty of legit reasons to e criticized as it was, but I am thinking too that some ppl may have disliked it because it did show Han being a criminal. It did not show the empire as evil. it was classic cognitive dissonance
Still, considering the idiotic characters in the Rebel Alliance of the sequel trilogy, I kinda side with the First Order/Empire.
Try a little exercise here, it is illuminating:
1) Consider ONLY the three original films. Based on JUST them is the Empire right?
2) Now add to the three original films the Prequels. Based on JUST these is the Empire right?
3) Same as Step 2 but add the EU materials that pertain to those six films and add Clone Wars and Rebels. Same question.
4) Finally add the Disney Star Wars material. Based on all of it is the Empire right?
1) Consider ONLY the three original films. Based on JUST them is the Empire right?
2) Now add to the three original films the Prequels. Based on JUST these is the Empire right?
3) Same as Step 2 but add the EU materials that pertain to those six films and add Clone Wars and Rebels. Same question.
4) Finally add the Disney Star Wars material. Based on all of it is the Empire right?
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
1- yes
2-yes, first, it was right for a stronger more centralized power, Republic, with its own army
3 - why EU? first there is no EU as a point of order. secondly, the same rationale applies. that is, whether separatists or rebels, both movements were representative of disunity and chaos.
4- there is no empire by the time of these disney films. however, if we extract the religiosity (sith, jedi, church of the force,etc) then yes, the first order is right in all but their methods ('planet killing', abducting kids -> soldiers)
My answers:
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Hmmm....not a clear cut answer here for me, but I will say No because political influence was about equal during that time and nobody was "right".
4. Yes, and despite them saying that it is the "First Order", I still count it as the Empire.
What is it exactly that the Rebels are fighting for in Disney Star Wars? Given what I have seen, I want to join up with the First Order and wipe them out.
I'm surprised you guys think the Empire is right in the Original Trilogy when looking at JUST the Original Trilogy. After all, they...
- Blew up inhabited worlds just to make a point.
- Slaughtered local inhabitants of worlds wantonly.
- Ruled through terror and fear
The reason for the exercise was to show why it starts to look like the Empire is right - it is the muddled writing in the prequels, the sympathetic imperial characters in Rebels and in some EU material and yes the portrayals in Disney Star Wars.
- Blew up inhabited worlds just to make a point.
- Slaughtered local inhabitants of worlds wantonly.
- Ruled through terror and fear
The reason for the exercise was to show why it starts to look like the Empire is right - it is the muddled writing in the prequels, the sympathetic imperial characters in Rebels and in some EU material and yes the portrayals in Disney Star Wars.
Interesting perspective, and that is why the thread topic is interesting. Only after seeing the saga play out over 6 movies (not counting the sequel trilogy), do I see that the Rebels are not really fighting for anything I would likely support if I were living in the galaxy. What did they want? The Rebels didn't also use terror and fear to make a point? The Jedi and the Rebels seemed to be made up of traitors, rogues and outcasts. I think my love for Luke's character made me root for the Rebels, but looking at it in the big picture it seems to make more sense to have aligned with the Empire. Yes, the Empire blew up worlds to make a point. But didn't the US drop nuclear weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki toi make a point as well? The war was basically over when those bombs were dropped. But the point was made.
Something else I realize about the sequel trilogy events is that since we don't know what transpired in the 30 years after Han and Leia got married, we have to assume they just ignored everyone else and allowed this First Order to use an entire moon to build a weapon without ever noticing. Along with that, Luke went bonkers and turned into a creepy exile who milks bulbous cliff cows. Han somehow discards the Falcon and it ends up on some dusty planet where a female junker kid gets her hands on it. Even Chewie should have been able to get the Wookie planet to create order. Essentially, the galaxy was in anarchy. So, who was creating order and rebuilding in the aftermath of the war? The First Order. They win. They should win, because they are clearly more organized and resourceful than what's left of the wreckage of a galaxy Han and Leia left behind. The First Order should have been the rebels, not Rey and Finn and Poe and Leia.
What happened after this?
What happened after this?
Something to note. The US was at war with Japan when the bombs were dropped. The Empire destroyed Alderaan - one of its own subject worlds. The equivalent would be the US responding to, say, complaints from residents of Miami that they pay too much federal tax by nuking Orlando to make a point.
The reason why I responded to the experiment as I did was as follows:
1) No - Based on just the original trilogy we see the Empire and Alliance portrayed in pretty black and white terms. Rebels are good and Empire is evil. Ditto for Jedi as opposed to Vader and Palpatine - Jedi are good and wise protectors and Vader and Palpatine are evil.
2) No but not as firm - The reason the no is less firm is the depiction of the Jedi in the prequels was completely different (and much less flattering) than the Original Trilogy. Suddenly they are NOT wise and are a loveless sect of monks that actually say love leads to the dark side. Meanwhile Palpatine is also very unsympathetic and Anakin is just a whiny psycho. The other issue the prequels brought in (and especially after they retconned the end of Return of the Jedi) was showing the worlds of the Empire with no apparent signs that a war had even occurred. So what exactly is the Alliance rebelling against if there are no signs of oppression? BIG difference from the OT.
3 and 4 are yes simply because Rebels, Clone Wars and the old EU material introduced us to sympathetic Imperial characters (like Thrawn and Pryce) and indeed both Solo and Rogue One likewise had sympathetic Imperial characters.
The reason why I responded to the experiment as I did was as follows:
1) No - Based on just the original trilogy we see the Empire and Alliance portrayed in pretty black and white terms. Rebels are good and Empire is evil. Ditto for Jedi as opposed to Vader and Palpatine - Jedi are good and wise protectors and Vader and Palpatine are evil.
2) No but not as firm - The reason the no is less firm is the depiction of the Jedi in the prequels was completely different (and much less flattering) than the Original Trilogy. Suddenly they are NOT wise and are a loveless sect of monks that actually say love leads to the dark side. Meanwhile Palpatine is also very unsympathetic and Anakin is just a whiny psycho. The other issue the prequels brought in (and especially after they retconned the end of Return of the Jedi) was showing the worlds of the Empire with no apparent signs that a war had even occurred. So what exactly is the Alliance rebelling against if there are no signs of oppression? BIG difference from the OT.
3 and 4 are yes simply because Rebels, Clone Wars and the old EU material introduced us to sympathetic Imperial characters (like Thrawn and Pryce) and indeed both Solo and Rogue One likewise had sympathetic Imperial characters.
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
didnt say they were not
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
yes, and yes
and many padawans were children screened for force sensitivity and "encouraged' to be given away by their parents to the Jedi order. there is nothing to spell it out or to object to the notion implied in the following quote that the at birth blood screenings were anything but universal across the republic and mandatory. hardly the actions of a liberty loving people
"The Jedi Order, a monastic organization dedicated to the preservation of peace and justice in the Galactic Republic,[3] recruited its members shortly after birth.[4] Utilizing blood tests to estimate the midi-chlorian count of prospective students,[5] the Order was able to identify Force-sensitive younglings of various species throughout the galaxy.[4] After their sensitivity to the Force was confirmed, the infants were brought to the crèche of Jedi Temple on Coruscant, where they were to live until they were chosen to become a padawan.[1][6][7] There they quickly learned that their true family was the Jedi Order"
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Jedi_youngling
the Empire never did this, all of their troops were either ,at first, Clones, or volunteer recruits
and violence? criminal outcasts in the rebels?
just look at the on screen actions of Cassian Andor and his killing of his own informant by stabbing him in the back
the whole notion that so many viewers have of a Rebel Alliance what was created from great and wonderful people and the whole affair never 'broke any eggs', is a naive one
the Rebels leaders were disgruntled Imperial Senators upset at being in the minority opinion in the Senate. they got mad at being ignored, so they rebelled
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
well, they are not rebels, the first order is not the legit govt.
the new republic is, or what is left of it
the Resistance was an idea of Leia's and a few of her political allies, who, when the presented their evidence of a growing threat to the republic (the first order) to the NR senate were ignored and ostracized as 'war mongers' looking for a way to gin up fear and get money to max out the NR's military
so, i guess, in the goofy minds of the new trilogy tptbs. 'resistance' is to both the NR and the 1st order
Where do I go to get fitted with a First Order uniform then?
. The New Republic seems like a disorganized mess, where the First Order is organized, resourceful and evidently has a powerful military/industrial complex happening. Once the Rebels are defeated, they no longer need to use planet killer weapons or deploy fleets of Star Destroyers anywhere.
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
as was the Old republic if we are being honest
bloated political body where one session would need to take years just to be able to allow every member world to get its say
no central military or law enforcement. every planet had their own.
a religious order of 'warrior monks' who may or may not do the governments bidding based on their feelings, was the only body the republic had to do any type of investigative or centrally planned operation in law enforcement or military action
and there was a need; the old republic was just as plagued by piracy and criminal corruption as the empire was. probably more so, as the empire at least wiped out any criminal element that they could not control