Some Trek thoughts for your consideration

[Joelist]

You may disagree with some or all - let's discuss why or if you agree why. Also anything to add.

1) Voyager is a VERY underrated Trek show. I've never understood why it is so. It is in many ways like a sort of throwback to TOS, has a good cast with strong performances and despite some rough patches (including a lot of Season 2 which led to changes in the showrunning). It has the tone and pace right and being episodic always works better with Trek.

2) DS9 is rather OVERRATED. While it has good episodes and some of the characters are good and well acted, it also is tonally rather dark, semi-serialized, heavy on shipping and even a touch dystopic.

3) While Star Trek Into Darkness is the worst Trek movie of all time, to me Star Trek Nemesis is not far behind. It's dark, violent and even has TNG characters behaving out of character so to speak (Troi, Picard, Riker).

Which leads to....

When we criticize NuTrek for being Grimdark, shipping infested with pacing issues and characters behaving out of character, the roots of this disease actually come from DS9 and Nemesis. In fact, making the sets literally too dark and semi gothic at times and far too big also came from Nemesis (and The Undiscovered Country too). The biggest negative NuTrek added (starting in STD) is SJW-ism and way too on the nose and current year political (always from one side) lecturing.

 

[Lord Ba'al]

1. I'm not sure who under-rates Voyager. Certainly not me. I love Voyager. It has some of the best Star Trek episodes ever, and it not just a random collection of stories, whilst at the same time also being that. There is one long arc, containing several shorter arcs, as well as many in between episodes. It has interesting characters such as the doctor and 7 of 9 that get explored and fleshed out. It has the feel of having a coherent crew, despite the fact that half of them were initially enemies of the other half. It has the second best Star Trek captain there ever was, after Picard. Please don't speak to me about Kirk, he may have been first, but he is way down the list. And there's a lot of Borg going around, which I always find interesting. On top of all that, the show managed to explore social stuff and generally intriguing things that you tend to find in Star Trek shows and not elsewhere. The worst thing about Voyager was probably the sudden and anticlimactic ending.

2. DS9 is a great show. Yes, it is tonally darker. That might have something to do with the fact that it's entirely based on an alien space station on the edge of Starfleet territory which used to be a military based used by the Cardassians, who are by the way still in the area, to help with the occupation of Bajor. It is a completely different setting compared to being on a Starfleet vessel going off on missions. That doesn't make it a bad show. It provides an interesting new setting. I find it one of the best. After TNG and Voyager comes DS9 for me. Those three shows together form the golden age of Star Trek. Besides, this show has Chief O'Brian, so that's a plus there. On the other hand, I can't stand Kai Win, but then the other shows had their own less likeable characters and stinker episodes as well. I found DS9 easy to get hooked on, despite various flaws. Best parts of DS9 are Garak and Quark's bar. The show did a great job of exploring the facets of Ferengi culture. Really interesting to see the differences (and parallels) with human culture.

3. I don't really have an opinion. I can't even remember what Into Darkness was about right now. Been a while since I've seen any Star Trek movies.

 

[Joelist]

Hi!

I have seen Voyager underrated in other locations online - this forum is relatively Voyager friendly.

As to DS9, it isn't just darker. It's edgy, gives us evil Starfleet and is loaded with shipping. These elements work to kill the optimism that is essential to Trek being Trek. Trek needs to be aspirational; DS9 is not. In fact, nothing RDM has made has been aspirational. He did the same thing to Battlestar Galactica - made it dark, edgy and shippy. At least there he had more of a blank template to write on as it was a reimagining.

As to Star Trek Into Darkness, if you can't remember it treasure that - it is THAT bad.

 

[Lord Ba'al]

As to DS9, it isn't just darker. It's edgy, gives us evil Starfleet and is loaded with shipping. These elements work to kill the optimism that is essential to Trek being Trek. Trek needs to be aspirational; DS9 is not. In fact, nothing RDM has made has been aspirational. He did the same thing to Battlestar Galactica - made it dark, edgy and shippy. At least there he had more of a blank template to write on as it was a reimagining.

DS9 IS aspirational. The whole story is about a people who were suppressed having risen up against their suppressors and occupying the space station that used to be a former military base and is now the beacon of hope for the future of said people. But the former oppressors are still lurking and waiting for a chance to strike back and take back what was formerly theirs. One Starfleet commander and a handful of officers are sent to help the Bajorans run the space station so that Bajor may one day join the federation. They have to overcome whatever obstacles they are presented with, which includes the conniving Cardassians. And that is exactly what they do, not by being bad asses, but by adhering to the Starfleet principles.

 

[Quetesh]

I loved Voyager, I was okay with the ending but it was not my favorite. I thought they would have picked it up from that at some point and given us more....but they never did which was a bit sad. They were bit preachy at times, but not in your face or enough to ruin the show or storylines.

I always felt like the most underated ST show was Enterprise. I really enjoyed most things about Enterprise, some truly good acting was in that show and it had the right mix of naivete and politics in the storylines that would have been around on the first big trip out. My favorite was the alien that called humans "pink skins", but that actor has been in ST in many different roles.

DSP is a struggle for me in some ways. I hated the Ferengi, barely even redeemed in my eyes even in DS9. I love the "tailor" , he was a hoot and I liked Odo. The others....meh.. Worf even bothered me at times. The whole thing with him and the Dax'es ...ew. The chief was hit and miss, and the rest, really meh.

I hated Nemisis more than any other ST movie ever, even the first TOS movie , as bad as it was, was not as annoying to watch....Once will always be enough for that one.

 

[Shadow Mann]

Funny, I had a response in here that I no longer see.

 

[Joelist]

I did nothing to anything here.

 

[Lord Ba'al]

Ghost post!

 

[Joelist]

ShadowMann, I suggest reposting?

 

[Shadow Mann]

I did nothing to anything here.

I know, I must have just not completely posted it! I checked to see, and it was never posted. So, here it is!

1. I agree that Voyager is underrated. Voyager is my most rewatched Star Trek series, even though DS9 is my favorite. Like you said, it's episodic and it feels much like TOS in that it is one ship on what is actually an exploratory mission and not just getting home. New species and new civilizations and all that jazz. I was not a fan of Kes and still am not! I usually do my rewatches from S4 forward to avoid Kes. And I skip "Fury". Janeway ranks #2 of my favorite starship Captains.

2. DS9 is my favorite Star Trek show, because it is both episodic and serialized. Gene would not have liked DS9 because of the Dominion War, hard politics and religion. The show had the best of Trek imo, with exploration, humor, lots of character development beyond what you can get from a weekly guest. It had awesome space battles, cool ships too.

3. Since I see anything named Star Trek made after 2005 as NuTrek, the two are completely separate things to me. Having said that, my least favorite Star Trek film is The Final Frontier, and the best is The Wrath of Kahn. I don't like any of the NuTrek movies, but the worse of the three I agree is Into Darkness.

 

[Joelist]

Interesting thoughts.

I would maintain that if you try to draw the threads for where the grimdark, violent, excessive shipping with erratic pacing and characters behaving out of character of NuTrek come from you will arrive at....DS9, Nemesis and to a much lesser (really only some of the visuals) The Undiscovered Country. I think this happens because the writers of NuTrek lack real exposure to Classic Trek behind these shows and either have no exposure at all or these shows form the bulk of their knowledge.

 

[YJ02]

Hi!

I have seen Voyager underrated in other locations online - this forum is relatively Voyager friendly.

As to DS9, it isn't just darker. It's edgy, gives us evil Starfleet and is loaded with shipping. These elements work to kill the optimism that is essential to Trek being Trek. Trek needs to be aspirational; DS9 is not. In fact, nothing RDM has made has been aspirational. He did the same thing to Battlestar Galactica - made it dark, edgy and shippy. At least there he had more of a blank template to write on as it was a reimagining.

As to Star Trek Into Darkness, if you can't remember it treasure that - it is THAT bad.

I think DS9 was the way it was because of its trying to be a too competitive with BABYLON 5

I think we all know the story between the two shows? the drama of which was a clone of which? the fact that J Michael Straczynski pitched a script to paramount (or "idea") about a Space station show? not long after this that Paramount announced they were developing DS9?

anyhow, either way, whoever copied whom in the interest of complementing the other... I think thats why DS9 was "darker" than other Trek

--------------------------
related, and why i came here just now, saw this idea posted on FB, I don't know about an entire series, but maybe a few eps as a part of that anthology series i read some Trek TPTB talking about a while back

-the post centered around the origins of the Borg. Where, who,why, when? type of issues

 

[Joelist]

I think DS9 was the way it was because of its trying to be a too competitive with BABYLON 5

I think we all know the story between the two shows? the drama of which was a clone of which? the fact that J Michael Straczynski pitched a script to paramount (or "idea") about a Space station show? not long after this that Paramount announced they were developing DS9?

anyhow, either way, whoever copied whom in the interest of complementing the other... I think thats why DS9 was "darker" than other Trek

--------------------------
related, and why i came here just now, saw this idea posted on FB, I don't know about an entire series, but maybe a few eps as a part of that anthology series i read some Trek TPTB talking about a while back

-the post centered around the origins of the Borg. Where, who,why, when? type of issues

Quite possibly.

I get the reasons they made it "darker", but where it went over the line was evil Starfleet, way too much shipping and the touch of dystopia. We know with hindsight that ALL of RDMs stuff does this but it is still not Trek to do it.

Also, I am not excusing NuTrek - it is almost all garbage. I was just making an observation based on trying to trace backwards the worst elements of NuTrek to see if an origin point can be determined.

 

[YJ02]

would also really like to see something , preferably a live action series, that picks up where ENTERPRISE ended, maybe with Romulan War, maybe just the end of it? And then through the yrs of the end of the NX class of ships to the standard ships of the fleet. the founding of the Federation as we saw with the ceremony at the end of ENTERPRISE which was a 'skip ahead' to after the end of the Romulan War

doesn't need to be on the ENTERPRISE, could be any ship. or ships, just NOT the DESTINY or any story line or "attitude" like it

and lets see how those races met in ENTERPRISE, like the Xindi for example, mesh in with the rest of the galaxy and the Federation. We always get more and more new races and hardly ever any follow up on old ones intro'd except for some of the core standard bearers

 

[Quetesh]

would also really like to see something , preferably a live action series, that picks up where ENTERPRISE ended, maybe with Romulan War, maybe just the end of it? And then through the yrs of the end of the NX class of ships to the standard ships of the fleet. the founding of the Federation as we saw with the ceremony at the end of ENTERPRISE which was a 'skip ahead' to after the end of the Romulan War

Yes, one of the best things about Picard this season is that is was honoring the previous shows other races, and not just so worried about introducing new ones for the sake of the fact they were new.