Are the Borg actually space zombies?

[Joelist]

I also liked the Borg better as a mass mind.

 

[Bluce Ree]

Yet they can dream even when part of the collective. Their "individuality" is not erased, it is supressed. Zombies have no free will at all.

Zombies move about unencumbered. For what it's worth, it is a form of free will.

No, they are not. You sever the connection to the collective and the Borg are more than capable of functioning independently.

Yes, but they are still basically zombies, albeit a more advanced form. Remember Romero concluded his Living Dead series with "Land of the Dead" where his zombies were learning. Yes, it's stupid since they are rotting and should not be making new brain cells but the point is these are merely another permutation of the zombie.

Lets remember here, the "modern Zombie" meme is a representation of infectious diseases, not a "historical" zombie. Are they a "space infection"? sure, I can deal with that.

I just don't get it sometimes, you guys argue sometimes that the wrapper does not matter, but then you will say that it does.

Romero created the modern zombie genre. His first movie doesn't exactly state outright that there is any kind of outbreak or infectious disease but his zombies' bites did turn its victims into zombies.

 

[Overmind One]

Zombies move about unencumbered. For what it's worth, it is a form of free will.



Yes, but they are still basically zombies, albeit a more advanced form. Remember Romero concluded his Living Dead series with "Land of the Dead" where his zombies were learning. Yes, it's stupid since they are rotting and should not be making new brain cells but the point is these are merely another permutation of the zombie.



Romero created the modern zombie genre. His first movie doesn't exactly state outright that there is any kind of outbreak or infectious disease but his zombies' bites did turn its victims into zombies.

Exactly the point of the OP. I had never thought of the Borg as a form of zombie until I had this rather interesting conversation with a foreigner who was not very familiar with Star Trek, but had seen a couple of episodes of Voyager. He did not even know their species name. He simply said "what were those green space zombies on the big cube spaceship?". I thought about that perception of them and realized he was right in many ways. Hence, this thread.

 

[Overmind One]

I also liked the Borg better as a mass mind.

How would the hive being function without some element of it "directing" it's purpose and objectives? What drones would be chosen/assigned to organize work teams vs soldiers vs scientists?

 

[shavedape]

How would the hive being function without some element of it "directing" it's purpose and objectives? What drones would be chosen/assigned to organize work teams vs soldiers vs scientists?

In a beehive I don't think the queen directs much of anything, she just gets fed by drones and squeezes out eggs. I think the organization in a hive is formed via instinct -- each bee knows its role from birth.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Joelist]

Ants operate like that as well.

With the Borg mass mind however, each drone is linked to the hive mind, which jointly decides what needs to be done and directs the drones as needed. Remember in "Best of Both Worlds" they even explained it - the hive thinks what needs to be done and drones go do it. It was also explained that was why (at least in the first couple of Borg episodes) Borg removed components from injured/dead drones - they were disconnecting the drone from the hive.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Zombies move about unencumbered. For what it's worth, it is a form of free will.

Did you borrow this while I was not looking:

Yes, but they are still basically zombies, albeit a more advanced form. Remember Romero concluded his Living Dead series with "Land of the Dead" where his zombies were learning. Yes, it's stupid since they are rotting and should not be making new brain cells but the point is these are merely another permutation of the zombie.

Zombies existed before Romero.
(and learning zombies is just stupid)

Romero created the modern zombie genre. His first movie doesn't exactly state outright that there is any kind of outbreak or infectious disease but his zombies' bites did turn its victims into zombies.

Right, but his zombies are not zombies, they are a metaphor for an infection. Borg -can- fit into that on a very superficial level, but once you compare an mindless infection just looking for more hosts to the borg on anything but a basic level, the comparison falls apart.[/QUOTE]

 

[Overmind One]

Did you borrow this while I was not looking:
View attachment 32855

Zombies existed before Romero.
(and learning zombies is just stupid)

Right, but his zombies are not zombies, they are a metaphor for an infection. Borg -can- fit into that on a very superficial level, but once you compare an mindless infection just looking for more hosts to the borg on anything but a basic level, the comparison falls apart.

The pre-Romero zombie lore existed even before the United States or Australia were nations. Even before Rome or Egypt. It is part of a forgotten West African religion which practiced what is called witchcraft today. The zombie was created from a corpse, raised from the dead by a witch doctor or priestess and used to do their bidding. Santeria voodoo zombies (Haiti) could create a zombie from a living person too.

The Borg comparison is quite apt if you use the classic definition of a zombie. But it is a comparison only...Borg are not zombies per se. But they could be considered space zombies in the same vein that Romero zombies can be called zombies. Did you know that Romero never called them zombies in his Night of the Living Dead. The audiences did that.

 

[Gatefan1976]

The pre-Romero zombie lore existed even before the United States or Australia were nations. Even before Rome or Egypt.
[/quote]
I fail to see the relevance of this.

It is part of a forgotten West African religion which practiced what is called witchcraft today.

Are you talking about Yoruba?

The zombie was created from a corpse, raised from the dead by a witch doctor or priestess and used to do their bidding.

Right, so Borg comparison falls apart under that definition as the Borg are definitely alive.

Santeria voodoo zombies (Haiti) could create a zombie from a living person too.

Santaria is a fusion of Yoruba and Catholicism, and their Zombies are not true zombies, merely mind altered people under "the Draught of the Living Death". They -are- the closest thing you will get to the Borg, true, but they do not have any form of "collective will", the priest has to direct them directly, much like someone under deep hypnosis
Hypnosis, derived from the Greek God Hypnos, Lord of sleep (see I can add totally irrelevant stuff as well!! )

The Borg comparison is quite apt if you use the classic definition of a zombie.

Not really.

But it is a comparison only...Borg are not zombies per se.

If they are not Zombies "per se", they are hardly going to be space zombies...................

But they could be considered space zombies in the same vein that Romero zombies can be called zombies. Did you know that Romero never called them zombies in his Night of the Living Dead. The audiences did that.

His Zombies are NOT Zombies, they are a Metaphor, which is probably why he never called them zombies, or space zombies, or "people who gosh darn just like brains".

Borg are not Space Zombies -period-

 

[Overmind One]

The pre-Romero zombie lore existed even before the United States or Australia were nations. Even before Rome or Egypt.
I fail to see the relevance of this.

Are you talking about Yoruba?

The relevance is that the definition of "zombie" is not what those things are we see in TWD and FTWD, in the classic sense. Neither are the Borg, but the COMPARISON is very apt, whether or not you realize that.

Right, so Borg comparison falls apart under that definition as the Borg are definitely alive.

So were the zombies of Haiti. And they are called zombies by those who practiced Santeria. That word is used.

Santaria is a fusion of Yoruba and Catholicism, and their Zombies are not true zombies, merely mind altered people under "the Draught of the Living Death". They -are- the closest thing you will get to the Borg, true, but they do not have any form of "collective will", the priest has to direct them directly, much like someone under deep hypnosis
Hypnosis, derived from the Greek God Hypnos, Lord of sleep (see I can add totally irrelevant stuff as well!! )

Both the zombies of Yoruba and those of Santeria are zombies, defined by those who created the concept and the word "zombi". That is very relevant.

If they are not Zombies "per se", they are hardly going to be space zombies...................

His Zombies are NOT Zombies, they are a Metaphor, which is probably why he never called them zombies, or space zombies, or "people who gosh darn just like brains".

Borg are not Space Zombies -period-

You keep missing the point: Borg are not zombies. Borg are LIKE zombies, and this thread explores that comparison. Nobody here said they are actually zombies, and my mention of the actual zombie from Yoruba and Santeria is to clarify the definition of what a zombie is. Borg, once assimilated, cease to be sentient. Sometimes they can escape or become disconnected and then regain their independence like Seven of Nine or the group under Hugh.

COMPARISONS!

 

[Gatefan1976]

The relevance is that the definition of "zombie" is not what those things are we see in TWD and FTWD, in the classic sense. Neither are the Borg, but the COMPARISON is very apt, whether or not you realize that.

They are nothing alike, you do not realise that.

So were the zombies of Haiti. And they are called zombies by those who practiced Santeria. That word is used.

So what?
Does that mean it is accurate?

Both the zombies of Yoruba and those of Santeria are zombies, defined by those who created the concept and the word "zombi". That is very relevant.

Catholicism could not sustain the notion of someone bringing a person back to life who was not either God, or "god in human form"

You keep missing the point: Borg are not zombies.

Correct, they are not Zombies!!!
What "point am I missing"??
"Are the borg actually space Zombies"?
That's the title of the thread, not "Are Borg like Zombies"
You made the thread FFS!!

Borg are LIKE zombies, and this thread explores that comparison. Nobody here said they are actually zombies, and my mention of the actual zombie from Yoruba and Santeria is to clarify the definition of what a zombie is.

You did not mention Yoruba at all.

Borg, once assimilated, cease to be sentient.

No, they cease to have individuality, they act -as a hive mind-
They are -not- the same thing.

Sometimes they can escape or become disconnected and then regain their independence like Seven of Nine or the group under Hugh.

Can Zombies "escape their master" and assert free will?

Zombies are braindead, reanimated husks of former living flesh, they have no hive mind, merely the will of their controller, and that's not the Borg.
Santaria Zombies are living beings with their will displaced by the controlling priest via chemicals, but they have no hive mind, and that's not the Borg
"Romero" Zombies are a metaphor for plague, which is mindless destruction, and that's not the Borg.

COMPARISONS!

Bewitched is as realistic as transporters.
It's just a comparison.....................

 

[Overmind One]

They are nothing
alike, you do not realise that.

You are the only one here who does not seem to see the similarities dude.

So what?
Does that mean it is accurate?

Who is talking about accuracy? The thread is exploring the similarities between Borg and zombies. If you do not see any similarity, then good for you! Let the rest of us discuss it then.

Catholicism could not sustain the notion of someone bringing a person back to life who was not either God, or "god in human form"

Christianity has been able to use zombie Jesus as "proof" that he was God, and many Christians still believe that it actually happened. But none of that has to do with this topic. The Borg could be seen as an amalgam of the reanimated zombie who does the bidding of the priestess or witch doctor, and the infected Romero zombie. It is a valid comparison, just as the Wraith of Stargate Atlantis can be compared to vampires, even though Wraith do not drink blood or bite their victims or turn into bats or become sensitive to light.

Correct, they are not Zombies!!!
What "point am I missing"??
"Are the borg actually space Zombies"?
That's the title of the thread, not "Are Borg like Zombies"
You made the thread FFS!!

Space zombies. Space zombies. Space zombies. You have no space zombie to define or use as an argument against Borg being considered space zombies. This thread is not a debate, it is a discussion.

You did not mention Yoruba at all.

No, you did. But the zombi is not just in Yoruba. The West Indies is where the notion of zombies became widespread. The root of the concept came from West Africa as did the word "zombi"

No, they cease to have individuality, they act -as a hive mind-
They are -not- the same thing.

Sentience IS individuality. Without individuality, you cannot have subjective thought.

Can Zombies "escape their master" and assert free will?

Depends on what sort of zombie we are talking about here, but my quick answer would be NO, they cannot. Others can break them from their spell, but the zombie cannot.

Zombies are braindead, reanimated husks of former living flesh, they have no hive mind, merely the will of their controller, and that's not the Borg.
Santaria Zombies are living beings with their will displaced by the controlling priest via chemicals, but they have no hive mind, and that's not the Borg
"Romero" Zombies are a metaphor for plague, which is mindless destruction, and that's not the Borg.

Precisely, which is why they could be considered SPACE ZOMBIES. Not Romero, not Santeria or Yoruba zombies. SPACE zombies. Why are you trying to corral it into a box? The Wraith can be considered space vampires, like the Borg can be considered space zombies. You disagree? That's your prerogative.

Bewitched is as realistic as transporters.
It's just a comparison.....................

It's not. That was the point of my little video. The appearances are similar, but they are much different because of the wrapper. Even words can make them different. Presenting something as magic (which is not real) or science (which is real) created separate expectations of how that something functions. Saying that the water glass "popped" into existence because of magic is different than saying it was materialized using a replicator assembling the object on a molecular scale. Neither can really be done in reality, but they are MUCH different.

 

[Overmind One]

Ah...interesting, I found a Reddit discussing this exact subject!

https://www.reddit.com/r/DaystromIn...atic_comparison_between_zombies_and_the_borg/

Seems others have seen this similarity as well (Google is your friend!).

http://fed-space.com/ipb/index.php?/topic/1930-borg-are-space-zombies/

 

[Gatefan1976]

You are the only one here who does not seem to see the similarities dude.

Untrue.

Who is talking about accuracy? The thread is exploring the similarities between Borg and zombies. If you do not see any similarity, then good for you! Let the rest of us discuss it then.

Am I stopping you?

Christianity has been able to use zombie Jesus as "proof" that he was God, and many Christians still believe that it actually happened. But none of that has to do with this topic.

It's a zombie, so it's comparable.
Or are you limiting your Zombie comparisons now?

The Borg could be seen as an amalgam of the reanimated zombie who does the bidding of the priestess or witch doctor, and the infected Romero zombie.

No, it cannot.
The best midpoint is the Santaria Zombie, yet even it is inaccurate.

It is a valid comparison, just as the Wraith of Stargate Atlantis can be compared to vampires, even though Wraith do not drink blood or bite their victims or turn into bats or become sensitive to light.

Nor are they affected by Crosses, running water, garlic, stakes, being buried face down, buried at crossroads, have chest cavities full of blood, walk after being buried, are hosts for demons, etc, etc, etc...........

Space zombies. Space zombies. Space zombies. You have no space zombie to define or use as an argument against Borg being considered space zombies. This thread is not a debate, it is a discussion.

Really?

No, you did. But the zombi is not just in Yoruba. The West Indies is where the notion of zombies became widespread. The root of the concept came from West Africa as did the word "zombi"

Really??

Sentience IS individuality. Without individuality, you cannot have subjective thought.

Do the Borg have subjective thought?

Depends on what sort of zombie we are talking about here, but my quick answer would be NO, they cannot. Others can break them from their spell, but the zombie cannot.

The Zombies you are talking about.

Precisely, which is why they could be considered SPACE ZOMBIES. Not Romero, not Santeria or Yoruba zombies. SPACE zombies. Why are you trying to corral it into a box? The Wraits can be considered space vampires, like the Borg can be considered space zombies. You disagree? That's your prerogative.

Cool.

It's not. That was the point of my little video. The appearances are similar, but they are much different because of the wrapper. Even words can make them different. Presenting something as magic (which is not real) or science (which is real) created separate expectations of how that something functions. Saying that the water glass "popped" into existence because of magic is different than saying it was materialized using a replicator assembling the object on a molecular scale. Neither can really be done in reality, but they are MUCH different.

Why are you trying to separate fake science from magic?
do you really need to corral it into a little box?
Too subtle??

 

[Overmind One]

Untrue.

Really? Then who else here sees it like you are seeing it? The others in the thread are discussing the similarities, and you are the ONLY one here who does not seem to see any similarity. Nothing wrong with that, as you are entitled to your opinions but you are hanging on your definitions and looking for an argument when this is just a discussion.

Am I stopping you?

No, but you are certainly arguing your point! Thing is, nobody else is arguing or debating. Just discussing. You are trying to kill the discussion by saying there is no comparison, and there in fact is.

It's a zombie, so it's comparable.
Or are you limiting your Zombie comparisons now?

No not at all! I accept the Jesus as zombie comparison.

No, it cannot.
The best midpoint is the Santaria Zombie, yet even it is inaccurate

But you are not arguing accuracy of terms though...make up your mind. Borg can be seen as space zombies, period. You may not see them as such, that is your view.

Nor are they affected by Crosses, running water, garlic, stakes, being buried face down, buried at crossroads, have chest cavities full of blood, walk after being buried, are hosts for demons, etc, etc, etc...........

Yes, all of that and they can still be compared to vampires. Space vampires. There are even less similarities between Wraith and vampires, yet the comparison is still valid.

Do the Borg have subjective thought?

The Queen does, but drones do not.

Why are you trying to separate fake science from magic?
do you really need to corral it into a little box?
Too subtle??

Science and magic are not related.

 

[Tripler]

I also posted this video on the Brad Wright thread. I made it in about 15 minutes from still photos of two coasters on my coffee table, two glasses and a couple of familiar sound effects. Though the effects are technically EXACTLY the same (one fades in), they feel different because of how they are presented (the wrapper). This is how you can create Wraith from vampires, and Borg from zombies.

The first one sounds Star Trek but the second one made me think of BeWitched . Friggin cool !!!