Idris Elba as the next James Bond?

[Overmind One]

Doesn't matter. You've been shown a commissioned drawing from Ian himself, book covers of first editions published before the movies, quotes from his books broken down in articles and now direct quotes from passages, complete with page numbers, in the original books from Joelist.

The record is straight and it has been proven, beyond the shadow of a doubt, how Ian Fleming's James Bond looks.

This is where you're at right now. You don't need to concede anything because watching you continue to dig your way to China is entertainment enough.

With everything that has been posted, nothing at all says he was a white or Caucasian male. Nothing at all. I still win, and you still lose. You guys need to make a good case as to why Idris Elba cannot be James Bond in the next movie...OTHER than the fact that he is black. I could easily see it if (like in Smallwood), we had to contend with Bond's parents or siblings or other relatives, but we dont. The white women Bond attracts could easily be the same who are attracted to Elba. White women in Britain swoon over this guy.

You can post pictures of holes, but Im not the one in it. I agree with the writers and producers who think Idris Elba would make a fine James Bond. I dont see how that puts me on a LOWER footing (or in a hole) to people who think his race is a dealbreaker. And if it isnt his race...then what is it?

 

[Bluce Ree]

With everything that has been posted, nothing at all says he was a white or Caucasian male.

 

[Overmind One]

No, dude. That's gone and done with. Now we're just proving that Ian Fleming was clear in his depiction of James Bond while you continue to champion its ambiguity. The point of this thread now is just to make you look stupid, which has been done ad nauseam through the last few posts all the way down to this one.

Enjoy your crown.

Cause you say so?

THREAD TITLE:

Idris Elba as the next James Bond?

 

[Bluce Ree]

Cause you say so?

THREAD TITLE:

Idris Elba as the next James Bond?

You diverted the thread with your "fact finding" to prove Ian Fleming never defined James Bond. I don't need to say anything, you did it on your own.

 

[Bluce Ree]

I agree with the writers and producers who think Idris Elba would make a fine James Bond. I dont see how that puts me on a LOWER footing (or in a hole) to people who think his race is a dealbreaker.

Dude, I see you're now trying to obfuscate the fact that you ended up looking like a complete idiot. You insisted Ian Fleming never clearly defined James Bond as being a white male Brit. You were run over by a steamroller filled with proof and now you wanna pretend it's about Idris Elba again.

That is precisely why the crown below will always be attributed to you from now on. Next time, don't spout shit with such assertive authority on a subject when you haven't a clue. Try using the words, "I believe" or "I think", it's a lot easier to be humble from there when you're proven wrong.

 

[Gatefan1976]

I object to the colour of that dunce..................

 

[Overmind One]

Actually, no.

Idris Elba is being eyed as the next James Bond, and I think that is a good thing. You dont. I dont have to save anything, since you nand Gatefan and Rush Limbaugh are not going to be considered in this process of selecting the next James Bond (or not selecting him because he is black). If they choose him, they choose him. I dont have a problem with him being on the short list. Let me see if I can condense this argument so far...

Thread start:

Making a case for or against Idris Elba being the next James Bond. Factions for = Why not? Factions against = HE cant be James Bond because he is "supposed to be" a white male, not black

Phase two of argument:

Factions for = "The books never said he was white or not black. Sure, James Bond could be black". Factions against = "NO! The books say he was a white male clearly. Here are the quotes and pages".

Factions against = "See? There they are". Factions for = "Where? I dont see white male or Caucasian or mention of his ethnicity anywhere".

Phase three of argument:

Factions for = "Still, nothing you posted contains references to ethnicity, race or is a good reason to not consider Elba as Bond". Factions against = "You are ignoring the quotes! Now, its about the quotes and the books and not about Idris Elba as Bond, its about making you look stupid".

That about say it?

Everything being posted for the "against" crowd is based upon one thing: Idris Elba is a black male. You got nothing else, because even those (now verified) quotes do not at all make a case for James Bond only being a white male. I am looking over the whole franchise and recalling the stories and not one comes to mind which solidifies James Bond as being a white male only. EVERYBODY knows that Idris Elba's Bond (if one ever comes to pass) would not be connected to the Connery Bond or any of the white Bonds. As if the US would have worked with a black British agent assigned to Russia?

Your argument is just plain silly, bro.

This is what Sony thinks, and why they are considering Idris Elba as the next Bond:

http://www.ibtimes.com/idris-elba-j...ny-pictures-chief-wants-wire-star-007-1763900

The source is one of the leaked emails from the Sony Chief and was never meant to be published. But this is nothing new with them:

Exclusive: Sony Emails Reveal Studio Head Wants Idris Elba For the Next James Bond

Leaked emails show Sony Pictures Entertainment co-chairman Amy Pascal confessing that the dashing Elba should be 007.
During a particularly droll year-end press conference on Friday, President Obama channeled his inner Louis C.K., entertaining a horde of reporters on subjects ranging from Congress to Cuba to a hybrid NFLer/actor by the name of "James Flacco."

One of the first questions lobbed at the Commander-in-Chief concerned the Sony hack and subsequent cancellation of The Interview’s film release—a destructive cyber-terror attack on the film studio as supposed retribution for their Kim Jong Un assassination comedy, which FBI officials believe to be the work of North Korea (though cybersecurity experts have their doubts).

“[Sony] suffered significant damage, there were threats against some employees. I am sympathetic to the concerns that they faced,” Obama said. “Having said all that, yes, I think they made a mistake.”

“Idris should be the next bond"

He added, “We cannot have a society in which some dictator someplace can start imposing censorship here in the United States.”

Plenty of the Sony emails have focused on Sony’s prized horse—the James Bond franchise, including the 24th Bond flick Spectre, scheduled to hit theaters on November 6, 2015. Reports have indicated that the script has leaked, the film’s budget ballooned to over $300 million, and that it may feature Blofeld as the villain.

For years, there’s been a lot of online chatter suggesting that Idris Elba, the suave British actor, should be the next James Bond—making him the first black 007.

Ill just leave this right here...


With this, I am out of this thread which has turned decidedly down the dirt road....

 

[Gatefan1976]

OM
Ian Fleming made Bond
Ian Fleming approved the artwork for Bond.
All Artwork of Bond is a White bloke.

Conversation over.

Bluce' disagreement is over Hollywood changing -established characters- to different "races" for no reason. (or really for PC reasons)
Can you give him a good reason why Bond should now be Black?
(and I don't mean "cause Idris would make a good Bond, because that is irrelevant to what "the us" are saying.)

You have spent so much time going after "the us" that you have never said why you think Bond should be black.
So please, Enlighten us.

Oh, and while I love Blazing saddles, Sherriff Bart is not a continuation of an established character.

 

[Bluce Ree]

Actually, no.

Actually, yeah.

This thread got stupid when you insisted Fleming was ambiguous about Bond's ethnicity. And, as usual, it's not enough for you to simply have an opinion. You need to go digging way deep into your ass for "facts" supporting your opinion.

It's not enough to just say, "But I think he would be a great James Bond". You had to enhance your point by pulling out "facts" straight from the depths of your colon to PROVE Bond can be Doctor Who.

Honestly, man, this thread diversion is done. You can go back to discussing Hollywood f'king with classics. You've already been steamrolled with evidence proving Fleming was clear. Anything other than, "Ok, I admit I was wrong about Fleming being ambiguous about Bond's ethnicity" is pointless from you on this subject. You're just a fish flopping on a dry deck right now with any other counter to that.

I don't care if they make Elba the new Bond one day. Honestly, I don't give a flying fuck. He's a good actor. I dislike Hollywood fucking with classics for the sake of political correctness. In fact, I despise it and I'm talking about that on a broad spectrum, not skin-color changes.

 

[Jim of WVa]

Doesn't matter. You've been shown a commissioned drawing from Fleming himself, book covers of first editions published before the movies, quotes from his books broken down in articles and now direct quotes from passages, complete with page numbers, in the original books from Joelist.

The record is straight and it has been proven, beyond the shadow of a doubt, how Ian Fleming's James Bond looks.

This is where you're at right now. You don't need to concede anything because watching you continue to dig your way to China is entertainment enough.

Leave the History Channel's Curse of Oak Island series out of it.

 

[shavedape]

 

[Gatefan1976]

Who is the one doing the dreaming there???

 

[shavedape]

You understood my point.

I say this without any rancor or attempt at insulting you: I understood your point, but did you? Better yet, did you understand my point, the one where I pointed out the flaw in your analogies?

Also, it appears that you and Rush Limbaugh are now intellectual bedfellows, go figure. (And no, I'm not calling you racist, Limbaugh actually says it about himself.):

http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/...ts-next-bond-must-be-white-scottish/20878883/

Limbaugh insists next Bond must be white, Scottish

Never afraid to opine on anything, the talk-radio titan declared on his show that the next James Bond actor has to be white and Scottish, because that's how creator Ian Fleming envisioned him.

Therefore, he said, British actor Idris Elba need not apply because he's black and definitely not Scottish.

"James Bond is a total concept put together by Ian Fleming. He was white and Scottish. Period. That is who James Bond is," Limbaugh said. "But now (they are) suggesting that the next James Bond should be Idris Elba, a black Briton, rather than a white from Scotland. But that's not who James Bond is."

Limbaugh, of course, was perfectly aware that what he said was provocative (he's no fool). "I know it's racist to probably point this out," he concluded.

 

[Jim of WVa]

Was it racist to point out that James Bond is a white male Briton, or that the act of pointing this out will cause other people to call him racist?

I do not believe that Rush Limbaugh cares whether or not people call him a racist.

 

[shavedape]

Was it racist to point out that James Bond is a white male Briton, or that the act of pointing this out will cause other people to call him racist?

I do not believe that Rush Limbaugh cares whether or not people call him a racist.

I believe the only thing Rush Limbaugh cares about is making money, which he does by throwing out provocative bones like this to his minions in the Right wing media echo chamber.

 

[Bluce Ree]

I say this without any rancor or attempt at insulting you: I understood your point, but did you? Better yet, did you understand my point, the one where I pointed out the flaw in your analogies?

Also, it appears that you and Rush Limbaugh are now intellectual bedfellows, go figure. (And no, I'm not calling you racist, Limbaugh actually says it about himself.):

http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/...ts-next-bond-must-be-white-scottish/20878883/

Limbaugh insists next Bond must be white, Scottish

Never afraid to opine on anything, the talk-radio titan declared on his show that the next James Bond actor has to be white and Scottish, because that's how creator Ian Fleming envisioned him.

Therefore, he said, British actor Idris Elba need not apply because he's black and definitely not Scottish.

"James Bond is a total concept put together by Ian Fleming. He was white and Scottish. Period. That is who James Bond is," Limbaugh said. "But now (they are) suggesting that the next James Bond should be Idris Elba, a black Briton, rather than a white from Scotland. But that's not who James Bond is."

Limbaugh, of course, was perfectly aware that what he said was provocative (he's no fool). "I know it's racist to probably point this out," he concluded.

You understand that my real beef here is Hollywood f'king with classics. While we differ on the opinion of whether Bond can spontaneously change ethnicities and be treated like Doctor Who, I have no issue with your opinion vs mine. If they do it anyway, I'll still go see Bond and will probably like it.

What I took issue with was OM1's crusade to prove Ian Fleming's depiction of Bond was ambiguous. In spite of being run over by a train full of evidence, enough to bust through the Hoover Dam, showing Ian Fleming's clearly defined depiction of his character creation, he buries his head in the sand and keeps pretending none of it exists rather than just saying, "Ok, I was wrong,".

It isn't even a case of agreeing to disagree about Fleming's creation. Ian Fleming commissioned a drawing, his original books have art and Joe pointed out the actual pages containing passages describing him and OM1 keeps pretending they all don't exist.

 

[shavedape]

You understand that my real beef here is Hollywood f'king with classics. While we differ on the opinion of whether Bond can spontaneously change ethnicities and be treated like Doctor Who, I have no issue with your opinion vs mine. If they do it anyway, I'll still go see Bond and will probably like it.

What I took issue with was OM1's crusade to prove Ian Fleming's depiction of Bond was ambiguous. In spite of being run over by a train full of evidence, enough to bust through the Hoover Dam, showing Ian Fleming's clearly defined depiction of his character creation, he buries his head in the sand and keeps pretending none of it exists rather than just saying, "Ok, I was wrong,".

It isn't even a case of agreeing to disagree about Fleming's creation. Ian Fleming commissioned a drawing, his original books have art and Joe pointed out the actual pages containing passages describing him OM1 keeps pretending don't exist.

#1. I get where you're coming from about Hollywood messing with established stories that we all know and love. Personally I don't see that being the case with a black guy playing Bond, especially since we're not even talking about changing Bond's culture, he would still be a rakish, cool, suave, debonair British dude. That's all I'm saying. And that's why I'm not understanding why some of you guys are taking issue with it. I literally don't see an issue to be made about it.

#2. OM1 is right in that Fleming wasn't hung up on ethnicity. He didn't make it a central theme of Bond's character. In fact he only added in some Scottish stuff in two later novels, none of it being overly descriptive. He actually stated that he considered the character vague and bland, which was intentional. Writers do that so as to allow the readers to flesh out the characters using their own imagination.* Look, Fleming was a middle-aged white guy who wrote the kind of character that a middle-aged white guy would write in the 1950's, that being most likely a white character. You will be hard pressed to find a middle-aged white guy in the 1950's writing specifically a black protagonist for a series of books. That's a given, but it's also irrelevant, which is what OM1 is saying. Again, he's pointing out that Fleming was not overly descriptive of Bond and that was for good reason -- he didn't want to be. He wanted to keep Bond something of a blank slate aesthetically.

In arguments like this it's easy to cherry pick minute details to wrestle over but what's important is the abstract of the argument, not picayune irrelevant details. And the abstract that I see OM1 laying out is that Fleming did not make ethnicity of central import to the James Bond character. And if Fleming wasn't that worried it back in the 1950's why are people so worried about it today when we are clearly more enlightened as a society?

*I've got a good example of what I mean about authors avoiding being overly descriptive of their central characters. Some years ago I went to a book signing and talk by Elizabeth Peters. She's written a ton of stuff but her most popular series is the Amelia Peabody mysteries. They've got a loyal following and in fact I was there just for that reason. During the talk she mentioned how much of a negative reaction one of her books got from the fans simply due to the publisher having a graphic artist create a book cover depicting the main characters on it. In short, people freaked out because the characters didn't look at all how they had envisioned them. After the numerous complaints Peters said graphic depictions and descriptions of the characters was henceforth verboten. And that's the impression I get of Fleming in regards to Bond, especially when he talked about being intentionally vague and bland.

 

[Bluce Ree]

Again, he's pointing out that Fleming was not overly descriptive of Bond

No. Read the thread. He refused to acknowledge that Ian Fleming even *hinted* that Bond was a white male Brit. Again, a commissioned drawing, cover art, the characters in his books describing Bond as looking like Hoagy Carmichael as well as Ian himself saying that he envisioned Bond looking like Carmichael. Right to the end, he refused the existence of ANY of this with his patented

. He outright said the passages don't exist in *his* copies of the Bond books, which somehow he feels vindicates his assertion and therefore proves Ian Fleming was ambiguous, which is intellectually dishonest. I'm like this because I hold his intellect in high regard and when he digs himself really deep into a hole where he refuses reality because of his convictions, he pulls this same bullshit.

 

[Gatefan1976]

#1. I get where you're coming from about Hollywood messing with established stories that we all know and love. Personally I don't see that being the case with a black guy playing Bond, especially since we're not even talking about changing Bond's culture, he would still be a rakish, cool, suave, debonair British dude. That's all I'm saying. And that's why I'm not understanding why some of you guys are taking issue with it. I literally don't see an issue to be made about it.

Because it is not the character Ian Fleming wrote about.
It's really no more than that. You could make him British with Chinese ancestry and my argument would not change a jot my friend. I think that's what seperates it from being a race issue. If I said "anything but Chinese", that would be racist and bigoted for sure. As I have been trying to say, "because he is black" is not the reason I have a problem, it's because it is -not- the James Bond the Author wrote.
I would be just as pissed is the dancing Cat to my left was changed into a white guy, they may be able to -play- the Cat, Hell, they may do it better than Danny, but it is not the cat as written by Grant Naylor.
The argument is not one of race but allowing for the artistic integrity of the Original author to stand.

#2. OM1 is right in that Fleming wasn't hung up on ethnicity. He didn't make it a central theme of Bond's character. In fact he only added in some Scottish stuff in two later novels, none of it being overly descriptive. He actually stated that he considered the character vague and bland, which was intentional. Writers do that so as to allow the readers to flesh out the characters using their own imagination.* Look, Fleming was a middle-aged white guy who wrote the kind of character that a middle-aged white guy would write in the 1950's, that being most likely a white character. You will be hard pressed to find a middle-aged white guy in the 1950's writing specifically a black protagonist for a series of books. That's a given, but it's also irrelevant, which is what OM1 is saying. Again, he's pointing out that Fleming was not overly descriptive of Bond and that was for good reason -- he didn't want to be. He wanted to keep Bond something of a blank slate aesthetically.

What colour is Huckleberry Finn?
We know his father is white, what about his mother?
If anyone wants to troll the book for evidence: http://contentserver.adobe.com/store/books/HuckFinn.pdf

The argument as given is "the absence of proof means that it could be true", and that just isn't a good argument.
It's not so much that Fleming "did not care about ethnicity" it was just as you say, par for the course for a white male writer of the time. It would not even entered his head that he would have to describe what "colour" Bond was. Authors of the time only bothered to describe "race" when it was -not- white.

In arguments like this it's easy to cherry pick minute details to wrestle over but what's important is the abstract of the argument, not picayune irrelevant details. And the abstract that I see OM1 laying out is that Fleming did not make ethnicity of central import to the James Bond character. And if Fleming wasn't that worried it back in the 1950's why are people so worried about it today when we are clearly more enlightened as a society?

Again it's not a question of not caring, it a question of "the standard" of the day.
IS what colour Bond is central to his personality? No, not really, because Fleming never really gave him a great personality anyway, concentrating more on the action. Does anything in his scant personality indicate he could possibly be a person -other- than white, not at all.

 

[Joelist]

View attachment 30651

Actually this picture is of Daniel Craig playing a totally different character - Tuvia Bielski and the movie is Defiance, which is a VERY compelling rendition of the true story of the Bielski brothers who in WW2 Belarus succeeded in saving well over a thousand Jewish people from the Nazis. Real life heroes who did an amazing feat, hiding in the forests and actually building a small secret city in there for three years.