The Klingon inconsistencies

[YJ02]

Now I personally get and accept the explanation given for the different appearances of the Klingons between TOS and TNG- forward.

That is ,the explanation given in ST:ENTERPRISE. Reasonably acceptable to me, at least those showrunners gave an explanation (unlike the ST-d runners and their baffling choice of looks for Klingons) on screen.

But it seems some people, who seemingly claim to know their Trek, don't get it.

Like the guy who wrote this article and included this clip from DS9 (below)
Its not just Trek wither, but with a lot of shows and movies where these 'snap 'critics on the net are in such a rush to mass produce content, they seemingly do no fact (canon) checking before they post their story.

Leads to a lot more confusion imo.
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Now on the clip, Worf's explanation is acceptable to me, the Klingons are private and the whole issue with the genetic experiment with augment gens gone wrong was an embarrassing disaster for the Empire. Especially since they had to rely on aliens to fix their issue (Dr Phlox and the ENTERPRISE crew).

But here is the thing-and I know that backwards continuity would be a real bitch to maintain (since ENTERPRISE aired so many years after DS9) but wouldn't the old style looking-that is those affected by the augment mutation- klingons recognize Worf as a Klingon since not all Klingons were affected (plus the cosmetic restoration the Klingon Dr talked about with Phlox)?




https://boundingintocomics.com/2018...ew-look-in-season-two-of-star-trek-discovery/

 

[Overmind One]

Now I personally get and accept the explanation given for the different appearances of the Klingons between TOS and TNG- forward.

That is ,the explanation given in ST:ENTERPRISE. Reasonably acceptable to me, at least those showrunners gave an explanation (unlike the ST-d runners and their baffling choice of looks for Klingons) on screen.

But it seems some people, who seemingly claim to know their Trek, don't get it.

Like the guy who wrote this article and included this clip from DS9 (below)
Its not just Trek wither, but with a lot of shows and movies where these 'snap 'critics on the net are in such a rush to mass produce content, they seemingly do no fact (canon) checking before they post their story.

Leads to a lot more confusion imo.
-----------------------
Now on the clip, Worf's explanation is acceptable to me, the Klingons are private and the whole issue with the genetic experiment with augment gens gone wrong was an embarrassing disaster for the Empire. Especially since they had to rely on aliens to fix their issue (Dr Phlox and the ENTERPRISE crew).

But here is the thing-and I know that backwards continuity would be a real bitch to maintain (since ENTERPRISE aired so many years after DS9) but wouldn't the old style looking-that is those affected by the augment mutation- klingons recognize Worf as a Klingon since not all Klingons were affected (plus the cosmetic restoration the Klingon Dr talked about with Phlox)?




https://boundingintocomics.com/2018...ew-look-in-season-two-of-star-trek-discovery/

This is all very interesting, yes. But where the newer showrunners got it wrong was assuming that "real Star Trek" begins with TOS and Kirk and Spock when it is actually The Next Generation that Roddenberry wanted to make but couldn't because of finances and because NBC canceled it before it's 5 seasons were complete. TNG was the definitive Star Trek, and it's characters are the meat on the bones of Roddenberry's vision, not the TOS characters. The Klingons of the TNG era are the "real" Klingons. Enterprise visited the Klingon augment subject to fill in the blanks which were hinted at in the DS9 episode "Trials and Tribble-ations". All continuity was unbroken. But then Enterprise went and broke lots of canon on it's own.

 

[YJ02]

But then Enterprise went and broke lots of canon on it's own.

how is canon broken by adding to a story? just what items of sanctity did they violate? i say tptbs might break canon in a show's future, but how can they break it when they are covering things in the shows past? especially when you say TNG is the definitive Trek standard.
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but moreover, and beyond the actual topic of the moment, my post is also about how these neo critics who want to say they 'get it all' for anything they write on, when they don't. Trek is not the only thing they get wrong (i put up some recent examples regarding the new Tolkien show on amazon which is another example of this 'everyone's a pro critic/ i got to get this posted first', phenomena

this guy seemingly never watched or knows about the 'Klingon appearance explanation' given in ENTERPRISE

it is a small variable in the overall problem of moves and tv now, I admit,. it is also an example of over reliance on the internet for information. say some guy reads the above linked story and had never watched any trek other then st-d? and takes this guy's word for it alone? many ppl do this- take one source only and then say they know it all

 

[Overmind One]

how is canon broken by adding to a story? just what items of sanctity did they violate? i say tptbs might break canon in a show's future, but how can they break it when they are covering things in the shows past? especially when you say TNG is the definitive Trek standard.

The Xindi and the Suliban are examples of broken canon. The Xindi attacked earth and killed thousands of people. That would be an event of epic significance like a major attack on the mainland United States would be. It would resonate throughout Star Trek history like Wolf 359 did, yet neither Kirk, Picard, Janeway or Sisko ever heard of the Suliban or the Xindi.

but moreover, and beyond the actual topic of the moment, my post is also about how these neo critics who want to say they 'get it all' for anything they write on, when they don't. Trek is not the only thing they get wrong (i put up some recent examples regarding the new Tolkien show on amazon which is another example of this 'everyone's a pro critic/ i got to get this posted first', phenomena

I agree with that.

this guy seemingly never watched or knows about the 'Klingon appearance explanation' given in ENTERPRISE

it is a small variable in the overall problem of moves and tv now, I admit,. it is also an example of over reliance on the internet for information. say some guy reads the above linked story and had never watched any trek other then st-d? and takes this guy's word for it alone? many ppl do this- take one source only and then say they know it all

Exactly. And that is what Kurtzman did when he came up with Discovery, and also what Abrams did when he made the 2009 movie.

 

[YJ02]

The Xindi and the Suliban are examples of broken canon. The Xindi attacked earth and killed thousands of people. That would be an event of epic significance like a major attack on the mainland United States would be. It would resonate throughout Star Trek history like Wolf 359 did, yet neither Kirk, Picard, Janeway or Sisko ever heard of the Suliban or the Xindi.

i agree. i dont know why they just didn't use existing races as well. but that is not really breaking canon, it is more like making an addition that just wasn't thought out well at all

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and back to Klingons

if the STD ppl really ever wanted to be considered honest by classic trek fans, they could have still had their goofy looking klingons but made them either a klingon minority or a subject species that was part oft he Klingon empire

so, by allegiance they could be called klingons (like how millions of non italians were called romans simply because they were subjects of the empire)

idk, i didnt watch the show and just how much they doubled down on the "yes they are Klingons who are Klingon (contrary to my musings)", but if in s3 and now that they can use the full license (?) maybe they still have time to at least fix this one part oft heir disaster by showing their klingons as a subject species and have TNG+ era Klingons as well

and i see where these std klingons worship Kahless..well, he could still be 'our' kahless no matter how he was described in the show. i mean we have a lot of christians in the world who worship a blue eyed blond haired jesus even though that imagery is far from the truth, so...
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i just hope PICARD sticks with aliens we already know, and that they all look like they did before..please?

 

[YJ02]

how can the klingons be at near tech parity with the vulcans?

the vulcans nearly destroyed their planet due to their warfare (the awakening) and split into two distinct groups (maybe three wit the Mintakans), so we know they had warp capable ships even back then (the people of the raven made it to romulus).

but, the vulcans claim that only their peace and their control of their emotions have allowed them to become the ppl they are

so, how is it that a warrior race, klingons, have been able to do both; be a warlike society,who experience great emotions unchecked AND be a tech advanced society with gear and tech at equal level with the vulcans?

does this make them superior? if they can still experience emotion, and be a warrior based society and be advanced?

and, btw, there has got to be more to klingon society then just warriors? who builds their ships, who does their science? who grows/processes their food, clothing, goods?

 

[Overmind One]

how can the klingons be at near tech parity with the vulcans?

the vulcans nearly destroyed their planet due to their warfare (the awakening) and split into two distinct groups (maybe three wit the Mintakans), so we know they had warp capable ships even back then (the people of the raven made it to romulus).

but, the vulcans claim that only their peace and their control of their emotions have allowed them to become the ppl they are

so, how is it that a warrior race, klingons, have been able to do both; be a warlike society,who experience great emotions unchecked AND be a tech advanced society with gear and tech at equal level with the vulcans?

does this make them superior? if they can still experience emotion, and be a warrior based society and be advanced?

and, btw, there has got to be more to klingon society then just warriors? who builds their ships, who does their science? who grows/processes their food, clothing, goods?

I have asked myself this same question over and over throughout Star Trek. It is not logical that a race like the Klingons would arise to their portrayed tech level without an intellectual caste. Star Trek did show us some of that with B'Elanna in Voyager, and also with Worf's first wife K'Ehleyr. Strangely enough, both were half Klingon. They could have stolen tech outright with force, but even if they did, there would have to be an intellectual caste to reproduce and build off of it. They almost succeeded at destroying the Federation.

 

[YJ02]

Worf's first wife K'Ehleyr.

hey i just watched that episode! the one where she is killed...not wife, Worf wouldn't 'take the oath' so as not to dishonor her due to his status

 

[YJ02]

I have asked myself this same question over and over throughout Star Trek. It is not logical that a race like the Klingons would arise to their portrayed tech level without an intellectual caste. Star Trek did show us some of that with B'Elanna in Voyager, and also with Worf's first wife K'Ehleyr. Strangely enough, both were half Klingon. They could have stolen tech outright with force, but even if they did, there would have to be an intellectual caste to reproduce and build off of it. They almost succeeded at destroying the Federation.

in general, i think that Trek, and many other shows, do not go beyond the military or space venturing parts of other societies.

there have got to be multiple strata of culture, custom and occupations in the Klingon empire and the romulans. just as not all vulcans are diplomats.

in that vein, subject worlds-- i would like to see peoples of subject worlds shown. these would be those races/planets who have been conquered/incorporated into both the klingon and romulan empires

they cant all be slaves,, same with the Dominion. i could have sworn there was one ds9 ep that showed this. where sisko or someone from ds9 went to a planet that was part of the dominion and the population was both friendly and happy---no secrets behind the curtain so to speak. but having just finished re-watching that-- i mis-remembered i guess, wasn't there. must have been some other show

as with SW's there is so much more story and so many more stories that could be told within the Trek-verse

 

[YJ02]

the same for klingon society as a whole

with all the challenges and fighting/killing each other over points of honor or perceived insults, this cannot apply to the entire klingon society

maybe just reserved for those in govt or the military? i mean, at the scale we see it happen in show, and then extrapolated into the general society of the empire, they would be honor killing one another into oblivion

maybe these are rights and privileges that only the warrior caste has? we have seen their courts, so they have a justice system. if it was only personal justice/revenge, a justice system would not be needed

 

[Joelist]

Being a warrior society does not preclude the ability to have science advancements. Usually in such cases (as seen in our own history) what you have in the society is a warrior class (exemplified by the Great Houses) and the technology advances happen more in the (also hereditary and even part of Great Houses) craftsman classes.

Feudal Japan is a good example of this. It had great families and in a way the definitive warrior culture but also had very advanced science in areas like metallurgy, architecture and indeed art. The great metallurgists, artists and such were also highly regarded and were either members of the great families or under their protection.

I strongly suspect the Klingons in the Trek universe would have similar artisans and craftsmen; either within the Great Houses or as groups under the protection of the Great Houses.

 

[YJ02]

Being a warrior society does not preclude the ability to have science advancements. Usually in such cases (as seen in our own history) what you have in the society is a warrior class (exemplified by the Great Houses) and the technology advances happen more in the (also hereditary and even part of Great Houses) craftsman classes.

Feudal Japan is a good example of this. It had great families and in a way the definitive warrior culture but also had very advanced science in areas like metallurgy, architecture and indeed art. The great metallurgists, artists and such were also highly regarded and were either members of the great families or under their protection.

I strongly suspect the Klingons in the Trek universe would have similar artisans and craftsmen; either within the Great Houses or as groups under the protection of the Great Houses.

japan was and is and borrower society

all of those advancements you speak of they got from china usually by way of korea

they actively kidnapped artisans and smiths in all areas from pottery to metallurgy from korean coastal areas

even much of their culture is borrowed- their writing system, and the spiritual systems are heavily borrowed from both china and korea

 

[YJ02]

Being a warrior society does not preclude the ability to have science advancements. Usually in such cases (as seen in our own history) what you have in the society is a warrior class (exemplified by the Great Houses) and the technology advances happen more in the (also hereditary and even part of Great Houses) craftsman classes.

Feudal Japan is a good example of this. It had great families and in a way the definitive warrior culture but also had very advanced science in areas like metallurgy, architecture and indeed art. The great metallurgists, artists and such were also highly regarded and were either members of the great families or under their protection.

I strongly suspect the Klingons in the Trek universe would have similar artisans and craftsmen; either within the Great Houses or as groups under the protection of the Great Houses.

my emphasis is more on the inconsistency that indicates that the klingons are seemingly better then the vulcans in that the klingons are able to still experience unchecked emotions and warfare yet have still advanced

the implications of the vulcan's history is that advancement or at least the sustaining of a advanced society, was not possible until they learned to subdue their emotions entirely

of course, this may be a physical condition of the vulcans. that they cannot function peacefully and advanced without putting their emotions in check first

but then, that would contradict the advanced state of the romulans-a people who came from the same planet and 'stock' as the vulcans
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also, the klingons, like the japanese, could be a borrower culture. isn't it said somewhere (in ds9? hunt for the sword of kahless) that the klingons acquired a lot from the Hurq when they invaded and occupied Q'onos? so, like the japanese, they could have gotten their initial space-faring and other advanced tech from alien contact, then built and expanded on it? (this happened in the independence day sequel as well?)
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but, with pretty much everything in a discussion of this nature, these inconsistencies are a result of the writing and production. issues with consistency are often the first casualties in any show-especially ones where so many different ppl have been involved as TPTB's

 

[Joelist]

japan was and is and borrower society

all of those advancements you speak of they got from china usually by way of korea

they actively kidnapped artisans and smiths in all areas from pottery to metallurgy from korean coastal areas

even much of their culture is borrowed- their writing system, and the spiritual systems are heavily borrowed from both china and korea

Not so sure it is that black and white.

Japanese metallurgy was loosely based on Han dynasty methods but evolved a lot from there (in large part no doubt because Japan lacks sources of good quality iron ore) - they were forced to develop advanced techniques to turn poor quality ores into quality alloys. Likewise their architecture got its loose start way back in their history from China but rapidly morphed a lot (again no doubt because of the terrain and climate and also the lack of arable land).

Please note I am not excusing the dark side of Japan's warrior culture - the dreadful way they treated anyone not Japanese (Koreans especially were treated horribly). There are good reasons why to this day Japan has problems with relations with pretty much every Asian country and why tensions rise every time their Prime Minister or Emperor visits the Yasukuni Shrine. I was just noting that warrior cultures can also have art and science.

 

[Overmind One]

japan was and is and borrower society

all of those advancements you speak of they got from china usually by way of korea

they actively kidnapped artisans and smiths in all areas from pottery to metallurgy from korean coastal areas

even much of their culture is borrowed- their writing system, and the spiritual systems are heavily borrowed from both china and korea

100% agree. Most all of those east Asian cultures remained frozen in ancient tradition all the way up to and including World War II. From their defeat forward, they have stolen, borrowed or imitated themselves into modern technology and culture. This also includes Korea.

 

[YJ02]

100% agree. Most all of those east Asian cultures remained frozen in ancient tradition all the way up to and including World War II. From their defeat forward, they have stolen, borrowed or imitated themselves into modern technology and culture. This also includes Korea.

yes, but joe was referring to ancient japan and their advancements.

remember, most of the issues of modern china, japan and the area were caused by european colonialism and imperialism

and much of what Europeans built on to become advanced was built on tech 'borrowed' or imported from asia --gunpowder, silk, the stirrup, more

the world is a system where nearly every culture has relied/stolen on other cultures, made that info/idea/tech their own and moved forward

"it takes a village"