Cruella? Really?

[Overmind One]

Maybe the second movie is when Cruella will truly become Cruella?

Yeah, I think they might do this, but they have already massively changed the story. Innocent (but well-trained) dalmations killed her mother because of a dog whistle? Cruella has dalmations as pets now? They already established that she is a dog lover and that she never made a coat from the dogs. So, then how does it play out where Cruella ends up being the evil dog-hating psychopath we know from the other shows and movies?

 

[Joelist]

The Cruella we all know will be an impostor who kidnaps the "real" Cruella while doing all the evil stuff posing as her.

 

[Overmind One]

The Cruella we all know will be an impostor who kidnaps the "real" Cruella while doing all the evil stuff posing as her.

In a way, they transferred Cruella's evil over to the Baroness in this first movie. Jasper and Horace love her because they grew up with her. Jasper is a good man, and so is Horace but he seems less concerned with ethics than Jasper. How will they line up known Cruella De Vil with this woke one? I have the movie on my hard drive, so I have gone through it as a full watch, and also moved to specific parts of the film to look for things. This movie is EXTREMELY woke and feminist on overt and subliminal levels as well.

 

[Joelist]

In a way, they transferred Cruella's evil over to the Baroness in this first movie. Jasper and Horace love her because they grew up with her. Jasper is a good man, and so is Horace but he seems less concerned with ethics than Jasper. How will they line up known Cruella De Vil with this woke one? I have the movie on my hard drive, so I have gone through it as a full watch, and also moved to specific parts of the film to look for things. This movie is EXTREMELY woke and feminist on overt and subliminal levels as well.

I was just trying to come up with a way to address the monstrous nature of Cruella De Vil in every other medium in this film continuity - and the only thing I could think of was a switch with doubles

 

[Overmind One]

I was just trying to come up with a way to address the monstrous nature of Cruella De Vil in every other medium in this film continuity - and the only thing I could think of was a switch with doubles

It's almost like they created Baroness to extract the evil from Cruella's character so that she could become "cool" for the new kids. Since she is a different character altogether, why didn't they just create this character with a different name? Why try to connect it to 101 Dalmations at all?

 

[Joelist]

That’s what I said upthread. You can have the same exact film just remove the 101 Dalmatians references and change her name from Cruella to anything else. The result would be a pretty slick film.

 

[Overmind One]

That’s what I said upthread. You can have the same exact film just remove the 101 Dalmatians references and change her name from Cruella to anything else. The result would be a pretty slick film.

Agreed! The movie as a whole did not suck. But as Cruella from 101 Dalmations, it did suck.

 

[Overmind One]

I just happened to play out the post-credits scenes I ignored the first time around, and...

Spoiler: SPOILER

we have Pongo and Perdita being given to Anita and Roger, so this is definitely leading into 101 Dalmations, and it infers that Roger and Anita are going to get together. It also pretty much guarantees a second movie. Jasper and Horace (and Estella) were already thieves when they got together, so it isn't a stretch for them to move to the dark side with Cruella. But they have thrown in Artie and John the valet, so that is incongruous with the rest of the story.

Chances of a second movie are basically 100%.

 

[YJ02]

I think you are really underestimating the love of Disney for kids and the way parents still keep the stories alive. The 101 Dalmatians story is known by most Americans and their kids. Parents still do read to their kids and these book are still out there.

sure... maybe

but the overall point is the same you, baal and me made with things like nu trek and other new/ recone shows/movies

that what is made is made by the companies that own the rights to them. if the story is out of sync with what has come before, then that is what the owner's/creators intended. we watch -or not- what they want to produce and the story they want to tell in the way they are telling it

i could use what you posted for the ST-TOS era shows vs ST-Discovery/ picard argument as well ---->>> there is a love for original trek and many parents are keeping it alive by watching old trek with their kids. the original trek story is best known to most americans and their kids

and, like Hubby said- any Cruella 2 could show how she develops the known Cruella traits. In this movie, these traits were never thrown out, when she wore the coat of 'dalmation fur-which wasn't-- she let ppl believe it was the fur of the dogs she stole. she never said anything like "i would never skin a dog fur its fur -- for fashion"

also, the growing insensitivity and the way she began to use her two sidekicks could be early signs of what we see in the originals.. who knows? its DISNEY's story to tell and our place to either watch it or not (just like STD is with cbs/paramount, whoever)

 

[YJ02]

I just happened to play out the post-credits scenes I ignored the first time around, and...

Spoiler: SPOILER

we have Pongo and Perdita being given to Anita and Roger, so this is definitely leading into 101 Dalmations, and it infers that Roger and Anita are going to get together. It also pretty much guarantees a second movie. Jasper and Horace (and Estella) were already thieves when they got together, so it isn't a stretch for them to move to the dark side with Cruella. But they have thrown in Artie and John the valet, so that is incongruous with the rest of the story.

Chances of a second movie are basically 100%.

but but but.. in the original Anita and Roger were white! it CANNOT be the same story!!

 

[Overmind One]

but but but.. in the original Anita and Roger were white! it CANNOT be the same story!!

I don't mind the race swap or the coming IR relationship. What I took issue with in Cruella is the changing/creating of Cruella's backstory. There never was an Estella. Horace and Jasper were brothers in the original story. Jasper is supposed to be short-tempered and loud, and the new one is patient and sensitive. Horace is basically the same character he was originally. Cruella was an evil person and she already was fully psychotic by the time she met them. But in this movie, "Estella" is a misunderstood and very talented fashion designer who got a bad break because she saw her mother killed. She never thought about actually killing dalmations and making a coat. The way Estella became Cruella was hokey. But the Baroness character was fun! She was playing the part that Cruella should have played.

Back to Anita and Roger, they were already together and they owned Perdita and Pongo which were their dogs, and there were 15 puppies between them. Cruella had bought 84 others to make the coat. See where this is going? One does not suddenly go from making a fake fur coat of dalmation fur to wanting a real one. Artie, another new character in Cruella, clearly showed concern that Cruella might have actually used dogs to make a coat, and so did Jasper and Horace, and this is woke 2021 so that is probably NEVER going to happen. Therefore, this Cruella 2 will be a retcon having nothing to do with the original story. A money grab using the name.

That's my take!

 

[YJ02]

I don't mind the race swap or the coming IR relationship. What I took issue with in Cruella is the changing/creating of Cruella's backstory. There never was an Estella. Horace and Jasper were brothers in the original story. Jasper is supposed to be short-tempered and loud, and the new one is patient and sensitive. Horace is basically the same character he was originally. Cruella was an evil person and she already was fully psychotic by the time she met them. But in this movie, "Estella" is a misunderstood and very talented fashion designer who got a bad break because she saw her mother killed. She never thought about actually killing dalmations and making a coat. The way Estella became Cruella was hokey. But the Baroness character was fun! She was playing the part that Cruella should have played.

Back to Anita and Roger, they were already together and they owned Perdita and Pongo which were their dogs, and there were 15 puppies between them. Cruella had bought 84 others to make the coat. See where this is going? One does not suddenly go from making a fake fur coat of dalmation fur to wanting a real one. Artie, another new character in Cruella, clearly showed concern that Cruella might have actually used dogs to make a coat, and so did Jasper and Horace, and this is woke 2021 so that is probably NEVER going to happen. Therefore, this Cruella 2 will be a retcon having nothing to do with the original story. A money grab using the name.

That's my take!

you must have missed my smilie

we need a "sarcasm font" then.....

i am pointing to the overall larger view of the schism there is here and elsewhere with the take on remakes, reboots and sequels/prequels

whether disney ,star wars, star trek, or whatever else is in remake land these days

i say, if the company that owns the rights wants to retool the story, well, it is entirely theirs to do so. we may think it sucks bad-- say ST-Discovery, or otherwise, but it really doesn't matter,. we can watch it or not

and it seems like the majority of people are good with this re-toolings-- like STD getting a 4th season (- i couldn't even take in one episode of any season let alone 4 seasons). so as long as the companies keep getting favorable results, they will continue to do as they wish

sure, they'll toss a bone to the fando every once in awhile- make them think they have some influence, like with the Snyder Cut of that Justice League film. -though i have my suspicions it had more to do with fulfilling terms of contracts and securing future creativity of Snyder then any fan input

so it doesnt matter to the money/corporate TPTB's-- fandom menacing and other griping is like flies on windshields to them-- we can either watch-or not, what they make and enjoy it- or not

 

[Joelist]

Well Disney looks to be taking a huge financial bath with Cruella. It has box-office of 129 million and about 30 million (per Samba TV) worth of people buying it on Disney+. Meanwhile it is projected to have a roughly 375 to 400 million breakeven point.

I also wouldn't put a lot of bank in STD getting a S4 - basically they got it by default because Paramount+ (remember AllAccess went belly up) needed SOME first run content. You're seeing this in other places too - like Mayans MC getting a Season 4 despite literally microscopic ratings. These places need content and right now the fact that these shows have casts under contract and already built sets is getting them the benefit of the doubt.

And while this is all going on Disney posts a one quarter loss of 600 million dollars and is in financial trouble. And while the Super Bowl and NCAA revenue put Viacom back in the black so far this year (and amazingly they did gain in streaming but the leader in their gain was Pluto TV) they are still in pretty dire straits fiscally.

 

[Overmind One]

you must have missed my smilie

we need a "sarcasm font" then.....

i am pointing to the overall larger view of the schism there is here and elsewhere with the take on remakes, reboots and sequels/prequels

whether disney ,star wars, star trek, or whatever else is in remake land these days

i say, if the company that owns the rights wants to retool the story, well, it is entirely theirs to do so. we may think it sucks bad-- say ST-Discovery, or otherwise, but it really doesn't matter,. we can watch it or not

and it seems like the majority of people are good with this re-toolings-- like STD getting a 4th season (- i couldn't even take in one episode of any season let alone 4 seasons). so as long as the companies keep getting favorable results, they will continue to do as they wish

sure, they'll toss a bone to the fando every once in awhile- make them think they have some influence, like with the Snyder Cut of that Justice League film. -though i have my suspicions it had more to do with fulfilling terms of contracts and securing future creativity of Snyder then any fan input

so it doesnt matter to the money/corporate TPTB's-- fandom menacing and other griping is like flies on windshields to them-- we can either watch-or not, what they make and enjoy it- or not

I agree only with your statement that once a property is sold, that the new owners have the right to do with it as they please. They own it. But the rest of it is your speculation not based on the actual facts. Specifically, the notion that the majority of people are good with the re-toolings/reboots. Please prove that. I can prove that is not true rather easily. We can use your current Cruella and STD examples. Over the past year, I have been purchasing ViacomCBS stock. I own both voting stock (VIACA) and common stock (VIAC). I have attended the shareholder's online meetings and the investors meetings, I can tell you right now that nothing named Star Trek is doing well. The most successful of the lot has been Lower Decks because of the relatively low cost to produce it, and the general appeal of the show to non-Trek audiences. But it isn't a juggernaut and it is not driving subscriptions. Season 4 will probably happen, and possibly a Season 5 (of Star Trek Discovery). This is not because the shows are doing well, its because of tax credits. But here is the kicker:

ViacomCBS has lost more than 60% of it's value in less than 2 years, and it is currently positioning itself to be sold. Rumor has it that Comcast is the likely buyer, but it could be Apple or even Netflix. But the likelihood that it will be sold by the end of the year is very high.

Let me once again illustrate my favorite example of buyers who buy art they cannot create, then destroy it by changing it: You buy the Mona Lisa. Once you own it, you can draw a moustache on her, perhaps paint her hair purple or green, or even change her race, But the moment you make even a tiny change, you have destroyed the original work of art. Disney has destroyed Star Wars. Alex Kurtzman has destroyed Star Trek. These IPs have been destroyed by reboots (including upcoming)

Batwoman
Batman (upcoming)
101 Dalmations (Cruella)
Star Trek
Star Wars
Terminator franchse
Charlie's Angels
Ghostbusters (new one will fix that)
Indiana Jones (upcoming)
The Simpsons

Never lose sight of the absolute fact that Disney, ViacomCBS and any company in the capitalist world is beholden ultimately to it's customers. The FANS (consumers) are in control. They are the money, they are the reason products are made. Don't provide what fans want, and you die as a company. Until fairly recently, the fans were clueless and thought they were powerless because they did not know any better. But Pandora is out of the box and she is not going back in. FANS (or lack thereof) are the primary and persistent reason ViacomCBS is basically on it's deathbead. The awful CW shows they have made were expensive and unpopular. They have sunk the library, reducing the value of the company overall.

 

[Quetesh]

I hate to say this, and I had to force myself ,( it was quite painful ),to watch the first 1.5 seasons of ST Discovery but they completely changed 90 percent of it by the 3rd season. The whole show wrote over it's own existence in ST canon. I don't think it is going anywhere anytime soon as it is directly connect to Picard and the 2 more new ST shows that are set to air. I do not hate the idea of it as long as those horrid scenes with nu-Klingons are well in the past. I quite like the Pike character and looking forward to that ST new show. Picard has many cameos from our old beloved TNG folks that does not hurt.

If you haven't watched it you won't understand, ,but it is like they realized their mistakes and wrote back about 90 percent of them.

 

[Joelist]

Well we seem to have rabbit trailed from Cruella. So…

Yes STD tried in the last half of S2 to fix some of the immense damage they did. Unfortunately the finale was so lame that it fixed nothing - just telling people they can’t speak about Discovery doesn’t fix the problems. They needed to have Discovery’s journey through time literally erase it from the timeline and from everyone’s memory. And the core issue of Michael Burnham being responsible for everything in the Trek universe still exists, and SHE still exists and is a terrible character played by a bad actress.

Picard I was willing to give the benefit of the doubt to, but as it went along it was clear they had a woke agenda and changed all the characters to suit it - yes we had the actors and actresses from TNG but the characters did not feel like their TNG selves or act like them, talk like them or anything else. Plus it was dark, dystopic, bloody (ask Icheb) and above all boring and overlong.

 

[Quetesh]

I completely disagree about the finale. I was more disappointed in the Picard finale.

I think in a way it all relates because Cruella, Picard and ST Discovery are all examples of how the world of reboot that we live in can be presented and either loved or hated.
There are not many middle of the roaders for either from what I see. You are either mostly against it, like most on here, or really excited by the idea of it.

 

[Joelist]

So Cruella seems to have finished with about 200 million in revenue between streaming and boxoffice. Given its very high budget this means Disney is eating at least a 100 million loss on it.

And (sorry about lag but job has been busy) my point about why the STD S2 finale did not work was that the only way to actually achieve what they said they needed to was for the trip to the future to erase Discovery and all its crew from the past.

 

[Overmind One]

So Cruella seems to have finished with about 200 million in revenue between streaming and boxoffice. Given its very high budget this means Disney is eating at least a 100 million loss on it.

And (sorry about lag but job has been busy) my point about why the STD S2 finale did not work was that the only way to actually achieve what they said they needed to was for the trip to the future to erase Discovery and all its crew from the past.

I am not surprised. But there are more bombs coming.