Current state of the "Apple Tax"

[Joelist]

I just thought I would take a look around to see where things stood on the Apple Tax situation:

First our Apple unit - 15 inch MacBook Pro Retina base model ($1999)

2.0GHz quad-core Intel Core i7 processor (Turbo Boost up to 3.2GHz) with 6MB shared L3 cache
Configurable to 2.3GHz quad-core Intel Core i7 (Turbo Boost up to 3.5GHz) with 6MB shared L3 cache or 2.6GHz quad-core Intel Core i7 (Turbo Boost up to 3.8GHz) with 6MB shared L3 cache.

Retina display: 15.4-inch (diagonal) LED-backlit display with IPS technology; 2880-by-1800 resolution at 220 pixels per inch with support for millions of colors
Native resolution: 2880 by 1800 pixels (Retina); scaled resolutions: 1920 by 1200, 1680 by 1050, 1280 by 800, and 1024 by 640 pixels

Graphics: Intel Iris Pro


Strangely enough, the closest comparison model is hard to properly determine. The insane screen resolution of the Retina MBP really limits the comparisons if we use it as a criteria. Also the way the solid state hard drive is implemented in the MBP is not duplicated in any other laptop at present - the flash memory is using a PCIe bus instead of SATA which means no SATA controller, ridiculous fast I/O and also pricey.

If we go with the display as a lever point for comparison, the closest match seems to be the Dell XPS 15 at $1499. However the specs are definitely different at that price point:

Core i5
No SSD
1080p display

If you go up to their more premier model at $1949 the comparison is a bit more direct:

Core i7
Hybrid HDD (1TB mechanical and 32GB flash)
3200x1800 display
NVidia GeForce 750m (2 GB) GPU

Interestingly when you bump the Dell up to its more premier model the machines get closer. The MBP will be much faster in regular computing with that PCIe Flash storage coupled with very high bandwidth RAM but the Dell is sporting a Gamer's class discrete GPU. So it will drive its display at a higher fps (although Iris Pro is no slouch especially when coupled with such a high speed chipset in the MBP).

As a final note, add $500 to the apple price and you get the same NVidia discrete GPU in switchable mode with the Iris Pro. Add $500 to the Dell and you get a 512 GB SATA SSD.


So in conclusion, the Apple Tax is still there in a manner of speaking. However, in the past you got inferior hardware while paying more and now at least that premium price is getting you premium high performance hardware.

 

[shavedape]

 

[Joelist]

I tend to agree with the big poster Shaved put up too.

What would be really interesting to see is how Windows and OSX do side by side on this hardware which is definitely bleeding edge. If I recall correctly, past OSX versions haven't totally been able to take advantage of the high speed I/O of SSDs and while OSX is multithreaded it (like Linux) doesn't necessarily scale up to really exploit things like running 8 threads concurrently (which the quad Haswell i7 can do because each of the 4 cores supports 2 threads (Hyper Threading).

That said, I have been seeing some stuff that suggests Intel hit a home run with the Iris Pro integrated graphics.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6993/intel-iris-pro-5200-graphics-review-core-i74950hq-tested

 

[Joelist]

I may get the chance to put this to the test.

It appears that in about 4-5 weeks I may have a MacBook Pro late 2013 model as described above. It would be fun to Boot Camp it with Windows and then test it in both OSes - with this hardware it should scream with the question being does it scream more with OSX or Windows.

 

[Overmind One]

I may get the chance to put this to the test.

It appears that in about 4-5 weeks I may have a MacBook Pro late 2013 model as described above. It would be fun to Boot Camp it with Windows and then test it in both OSes - with this hardware it should scream with the question being does it scream more with OSX or Windows.

BE CAREFUL! My Macbook Pro got futzed after bootcamping with Windows 7. I needed to re-install everything.

It Just Works....

 

[Joelist]

I've done it before and had no issues. We'll see. I know Apple had to redo Boot Camp last year because of some issues - maybe what hit you was one of them.

 

[Bluce Ree]

That should read "Apple sucks but Windows sucks a little less" only because of its mainstream dominance on the desktop and widespread support. I have too much intimate knowledge of the Windows internals to pretend it's all flowers and candy. Windows on the back-end almost destroyed my business years ago. I spent so much time under the hood poking APIs I've been left with nothing but a very sour view of it and an accurate assessment of just how far it can be pushed.

 

[Overmind One]

That should read "Apple sucks but Windows sucks a little less" only because of its mainstream dominance on the desktop and widespread support. I have too much intimate knowledge of the Windows internals to pretend it's all flowers and candy. Windows on the back-end almost destroyed my business years ago. I spent so much time under the hood poking APIs I've been left with nothing but a very sour view of it and an accurate assessment of just how far it can be pushed.

Me too...Windows internals are so effed up that business almost MUST have a systems guy onsite/on call to keep it going. I dont see that changing any time soon with Windows 9. Im just hoping that businesses continue with Windows, because it keeps guys like me (and you) in business.

 

[Joelist]

They will.

 

[Joelist]

Anyway, back to the hardware. Has anyone else seen any laptops with PCIe SSDs other than Apple? It would be interesting to try to draw a direct price comparison.

 

[Overmind One]

Anyway, back to the hardware. Has anyone else seen any laptops with PCIe SSDs other than Apple? It would be interesting to try to draw a direct price comparison.

Apple is always going to be on the high end, price wise. But the power an Apple buyer gets for that will not compare to a similarly priced laptop/ultrabook with that same SSD. Apple may have it now, but others will soon follow for far less. BTW, I think SSD is overrated. With an SSD, when it burns out (and they burn out far more often and in a shorter time), your data is GONE. No possible way of retrieving it. A SATA, even if physically damaged, can still provide drive platters to attempt recovery on. The also last far longer than the SSDs I have encountered for consumers. I dont know about SSD RAID arrays though...if you have a RAID 5 or RAID 0+1, you can just replace the drives as they fail. But on a laptop or ultrabook it would be catastrophic. The most common failure of Apple devices at the moment is the SSD in the Air. Even the iPad does not suffer from that. I have an SSD in my MacBook Pro, but I back it up now.

 

[Joelist]

That's part of why I was trying to create a direct comparison. Right now you more or less cannot because Apple seems to be the only OEM using PCIe SSDs, Iris Pro and DDR3L RAM. The PCIe SSDs are a rather different animal than the SSDs in the older Macs. Better quality MLC and eMLC.

SSD life is a weird thing, as depending on how heavily you write to the drive and how full it is it may have a shorter life than a mechanical drive or a much longer one. The type and quality of the NAND also figures in. The Intel MLC SSDs have something like a 5 TB per GB written lifespan which is excellent.

 

[Bluce Ree]

That's part of why I was trying to create a direct comparison. Right now you more or less cannot because Apple seems to be the only OEM using PCIe SSDs, Iris Pro and DDR3L RAM. The PCIe SSDs are a rather different animal than the SSDs in the older Macs. Better quality MLC and eMLC.

SSD life is a weird thing, as depending on how heavily you write to the drive and how full it is it may have a shorter life than a mechanical drive or a much longer one. The type and quality of the NAND also figures in. The Intel MLC SSDs have something like a 5 TB per GB written lifespan which is excellent.

The low-end Intel 320 @ 600 GB has a lifetime endurance of 60 TB. That's basically overwriting the entire drive 100 times. Unless you're using such a low end drive for write-heavy database operations, it'll most likely outlive your notebook.

Figure a user with write-heavy usage throwing 10 GB of data onto their SSD every day throughout the year.

10 GB x 365 days = 3.65 TB.

60 TB / 3.65 = 16 years.

So, it would take 16 years to wear out the drive if you write 10 GB of data every single day all year around.

Higher-end SSD lifetimes go into the petabytes even with MLC.

SLC is a different story but not worth the difference in cost to high end MLC given the performance and lifespan of current MLC technology.

 

[Overmind One]

The low-end Intel 320 @ 600 GB has a lifetime endurance of 60 TB. That's basically overwriting the entire drive 100 times. Unless you're using such a low end drive for write-heavy database operations, it'll most likely outlive your notebook.

Figure a user with write-heavy usage throwing 10 GB of data onto their SSD every day throughout the year.

10 GB x 365 days = 3.65 TB.

60 TB / 3.65 = 16 years.

So, it would take 16 years to wear out the drive if you write 10 GB of data every single day all year around.

Higher-end SSD lifetimes go into the petabytes even with MLC.

SLC is a different story but not worth the difference in cost to high end MLC given the performance and lifespan of current MLC technology.

Why are the consumer SSDs like the Samsung drives around 250gb not all that great? I have one in my Mac, but it is that same drive that Apple uses in the Air, isnt it? The interface might be PCIe, but the hardware is still the same is it not? I dont know. You have built SAN arrays with SSD drives, if I recall...how is the life of those going? Any fails yet?

 

[Bluce Ree]

Why are the consumer SSDs like the Samsung drives around 250gb not all that great? I have one in my Mac, but it is that same drive that Apple uses in the Air, isnt it? The interface might be PCIe, but the hardware is still the same is it not? I dont know. You have built SAN arrays with SSD drives, if I recall...how is the life of those going? Any fails yet?

No failures and no errors reported, either. Those things take a beating but their lifespan is also ridiculously high compared to consumer drives.

Which Samsung SSD model are we talking about? They have consumer and consumer pro series. SSDs are usually rated on P/E (program/erare) cycles, which measures how many times the entire drive can be written over before it fails. So, a 240 GB drive with a P/E cycle of 3000 has a total lifespan of 7,200,000 GB (or 7.2 PB).

Samsung's 840 series have P/E in the 3000 and 5000 range.

 

[Overmind One]

No failures and no errors reported, either. Those things take a beating but their lifespan is also ridiculously high compared to consumer drives.

Which Samsung SSD model are we talking about? They have consumer and consumer pro series. SSDs are usually rated as P/E (program/erare) cycles, which measures how many times the entire drive can be written over before it fails. So, a 240 GB drives with a P/E cycle of 3000 has a total lifespan of 7,200,000 GB (or 7.2 PB).

Samsung's 840 series have P/E in the 3000 and 5000 range.

Mine is an 840. Running beautifully, so far Here it is:

 

[Joelist]

Why are the consumer SSDs like the Samsung drives around 250gb not all that great? I have one in my Mac, but it is that same drive that Apple uses in the Air, isnt it? The interface might be PCIe, but the hardware is still the same is it not? I dont know. You have built SAN arrays with SSD drives, if I recall...how is the life of those going? Any fails yet?

Actually the one in the Air and the MacBook Pro since late 2013 is a totally different animal.

 

[Overmind One]

Actually the one in the Air and the MacBook Pro since late 2013 is a totally different animal.

Interesting. No wonder it fails. I can see the banks of memory chips in series on a cost cutting abs board instead of inside a solid enclosure. Not surprised at all to see this in Apple. That construction is actually sorta shoddy.

 

[Joelist]

Which Air? Remember that the entire hardware set changed late last year. New CPU, GPU, Storage, RAM, Wireless and chipset. Thus far the reliability of these new type SSDs has been reported as excellent.

 

[Overmind One]

Which Air? Remember that the entire hardware set changed late last year. New CPU, GPU, Storage, RAM, Wireless and chipset. Thus far the reliability of these new type SSDs has been reported as excellent.

Perhaps...I dont know the actual numbers. But I do know what I see at the Apple Store in manhattan Beach which I am at about once a week. At the Genius Bar, what Apple devices are there the most? iPhones with cracked screens (they can fix in the store now), and the Macbook Air (latest one and the one before it). The least seen is the Mac Pro tower (Intel). Even the iMac comes in more than the tower. I wonder if Apple publishes numbers for repairs? I wouldnt think so...but evidenced by how crowded the stores are with customers who are there to have stuff repaired, I dont think "It Just Works".