Do you believe in aliens? (Poll)

[Red Mage]

Let me say I never presented such an argument. Of course if that were the only evidence the discussion would be settled.

And no, this thread will not end in Flame Hell if people stick to the topic and no insulting ensues. Even then I'll just clean it up.

I hope I was not implying that you were. I was simply agreeing with part of the statement that Omni made which is the lack of evidence doesn't mean proof of the existance of god. However, I think the subject has gotten a bit off topic. The topic has shifted towards whether god exists or not rather than aliens.

A bit more on topic, I think one's belief in the probably in aliens is impacted on their religion. For example, Christians might be inclined to think aliens don't exist due to their belief in the story of creation. People who don't believe in "creation" from a higher being are probably more likely to believe in the existance of aliens.

 

[Graybrew1]

Sorry to upset you guys.

I did not mean to cause such a stir. I don't look down on anybody because of their religious belief or lack thereof , I also will not deny mine. And I assume none here would either. The reason I mentioned it in my response was because it makes for a very tricky question to answer if you believe in the bible. Hypothetically , If there is another planet with a bunch of other beings you would be asking yourself many other questions. Such as, Did God make them too? Do they have the same bible as us? Will we ever meet them someday? Is it up to our free will whether or not we get to meet them someday because it was not mentioned in the bible? I could go on and on. Come to think about there could be a really cool Scifi movie out of that concept. :icon_e_wink: Anyway, I just wanted to explain why the question of a person's beliefs would very much be pertinent to this question.

 

[Mr. A]

I hope I was not implying that you were. I was simply agreeing with part of the statement that Omni made which is the lack of evidence doesn't mean proof of the existance of god. However, I think the subject has gotten a bit off topic. The topic has shifted towards whether god exists or not rather than aliens.

A bit more on topic, I think one's belief in the probably in aliens is impacted on their religion. For example, Christians might be inclined to think aliens don't exist due to their belief in the story of creation. People who don't believe in "creation" from a higher being are probably more likely to believe in the existance of aliens.

I am a Christian and I don't agree that that Religion forbids the existence of alien life, so I don't see why it should be a problem. Even someone who believes in 100% Creation could also believe that God created life on other planets as well, so it shouldn't be an issue.
But I guess if anyone writes he believes in aliens or he doesn't believe because his personal Religion dictates that, then we'll just leave it at that because there's no room for debate. One more vote on the poll and one more opinion...

Sorry to upset you guys.

I did not mean to cause such a stir. I don't look down on anybody because of their religious belief or lack thereof , I also will not deny mine. And I assume none here would either. The reason I mentioned it in my response was because it makes for a very tricky question to answer if you believe in the bible. Hypothetically , If there is another planet with a bunch of other beings you would be asking yourself many other questions. Such as, Did God make them too? Do they have the same bible as us? Will we ever meet them someday? Is it up to our free will whether or not we get to meet them someday because it was not mentioned in the bible? I could go on and on. Come to think about there could be a really cool Scifi movie out of that concept. :icon_e_wink: Anyway, I just wanted to explain why the question of a person's beliefs would very much be pertinent to this question.

Oops, just saw your post. I guess I answered the question above. As far as what I bolded, C. S. Lewis has a sci-fi book trilogy based more or less on that concept.

 

[Graybrew1]

I am a Christian and I don't agree that that Religion forbids the existence of alien life, so I don't see why it should be a problem. Even someone who believes in 100% Creation could also believe that God created life on other planets as well, so it shouldn't be an issue.
But I guess if anyone writes he believes in aliens or he doesn't believe because his personal Religion dictates that, then we'll just leave it at that because there's no room for debate. One more vote on the poll and one more opinion...


Oops, just saw your post. I guess I answered the question above. As far as what I bolded, C. S. Lewis has a sci-fi book trilogy based more or less on that concept.

What's the name of the books?

 

[Mr. A]

What's the name of the books?

http://www.amazon.com/Out-Silent-Planet-C-S-Lewis/dp/0684823802
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_the_Silent_Planet

Spoilers: http://www.indopedia.org/index.php?title=Out_of_the_Silent_Planet



Back on topic, the Drake Equation:

The Drake equation states that:



where:

N = the number of civilizations in our galaxy with which communication might be possible;

and

R* = the average rate of star formation per year in our galaxy
fp = the fraction of those stars that have planets
ne = the average number of planets that can potentially support life per star that has planets
fℓ = the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop life at some point
fi = the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop intelligent life
fc = the fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into space
L = the length of time for which such civilizations release detectable signals into space.

Historical estimate of the parameters:

Considerable disagreement on the values of most of these parameters exists, but the values used by Drake and his colleagues in 1961 were:

• R* = 10/year (10 stars formed per year, on the average over the life of the galaxy)
• fp = 0.5 (half of all stars formed will have planets)
• ne = 2 (stars with planets will have 2 planets capable of developing life)
• fl = 1 (100% of these planets will develop life)
• fi = 0.01 (1% of which will be intelligent life)
• fc = 0.01 (1% of which will be able to communicate)
• L = 10,000 years (which will last 10,000 years)

Drake's values give N = 10 × 0.5 × 2 × 1 × 0.01 × 0.01 × 10,000 = 10.

 

[Red Mage]

I am a Christian and I don't agree that that Religion forbids the existence of alien life, so I don't see why it should be a problem. Even someone who believes in 100% Creation could also believe that God created life on other planets as well, so it shouldn't be an issue.

Not saying that religion forbids the belief in aliens just that a relgious person is probably more likely to not believe in aliens. Aliens are not mentioned in the Bible so many Christians from my own experience from living in a very Christian household, that those who believe in the story of creation tend to not to believe in life created outside of Earth. Of course there's always more liberal Christians who see the story as more of a metaphor and may believe that aliens were created along with the stars. I wonder what the exact statistics are on the belief in god and the belief in aliens.

 

[Red Mage]

http://www.amazon.com/Out-Silent-Planet-C-S-Lewis/dp/0684823802
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_the_Silent_Planet



Back on topic, the Drake Equation:

The Drake equation states that:

View attachment 3821

where:

N = the number of civilizations in our galaxy with which communication might be possible;

and

R* = the average rate of star formation per year in our galaxy
fp = the fraction of those stars that have planets
ne = the average number of planets that can potentially support life per star that has planets
fℓ = the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop life at some point
fi = the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop intelligent life
fc = the fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into space
L = the length of time for which such civilizations release detectable signals into space.

Historical estimate of the parameters:

Considerable disagreement on the values of most of these parameters exists, but the values used by Drake and his colleagues in 1961 were:

• R* = 10/year (10 stars formed per year, on the average over the life of the galaxy)
• fp = 0.5 (half of all stars formed will have planets)
• ne = 2 (stars with planets will have 2 planets capable of developing life)
• fl = 1 (100% of these planets will develop life)
• fi = 0.01 (1% of which will be intelligent life)
• fc = 0.01 (1% of which will be able to communicate)
• L = 10,000 years (which will last 10,000 years)

Drake's values give N = 10 × 0.5 × 2 × 1 × 0.01 × 0.01 × 10,000 = 10.

Most of the parameters are completely unknown making that equation useless. Some of the values Drake chose were odd. How can he assume that the average star has two planets with capable of developing life when our only example (our own solar system) has only one?

 

[Mr. A]

I wonder what the exact statistics are on the belief in god and the belief in aliens.

You are getting one on your second question here...

BTW, I think you should have included an option: "Maybe, I can't decide either way." (agnostic). I didn't choose "Maybe" on your poll, because "Never really thought about it" didn't apply to me.

 

[Mr. A]

Most of the parameters are completely unknown making that equation useless. Some of the values Drake chose were odd. How can he assume that the average star has two planets with capable of developing life when our only example (our own solar system) has only one?

That WAS written in 1961, long before a manned mission to the moon was even an idea on anybody's mind (except maybe for Mr. Von Braun ).

I wouldn't say the equation is completely useless. It's completely unscientific, but a very good basis for speculation! Or as Drake himself put, it is "a way of 'organizing our ignorance' on the subject."

 

[Stonelesscutter]

I believe life exists in other places in the universe.
And where life is allowed to exist for a prolonged period it will evolve.
And when it evolves far enough, it will become intelligent.
And eventually if circumstances are favorable it will become intelligent enough to shape the world around it and even built machines capable of doing things they never dreamed possible.
Just like on earth.
I don't believe life from another place in the universe has ever intentionally visited earth however, that's simply impossible.
Microbes don't really count in this conversation do they?

 

[Mr. A]

I believe life exists in other places in the universe.
And where life is allowed to exist for a prolonged period it will evolve.
And when it evolves far enough, it will become intelligent.
And eventually if circumstances are favorable it will become intelligent enough to shape the world around it and even built machines capable of doing things they never dreamed possible.
Just like on earth.
I don't believe life from another place in the universe has ever intentionally visited earth however, that's simply impossible.
Microbes don't really count in this conversation do they?

If you're BW and JM trying to argue that there were LOTS of aliens on S1 of SGU they certainly do!

Why do you think it's impossible??

 

[Stonelesscutter]

LOL dude if aliens had found us they would have wiped us out by now seeing as universaly speaking the human race is no diffrent then locusts in that we concume every reasource then move on to do the same again, so if aliens found us and studied us theyd rule us as a potential universal threat and exterminate us as a pest the universe could do without.

Kind of reminds me of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Except there they didn't even care enough about our beloved planet to exterminate us, they just wanted to build their intergalactic highway and earth was in the way.

 

[Stonelesscutter]

If you're BW and JM trying to argue that there were LOTS of aliens on S1 of SGU they certainly do!

Why do you think it's impossible??

Distances are far too great for anyone to ever travel to another starsystem.
Come to think of it there would be a way. If we could somehow construct a planetlike spaceship that could both contain and sustain a good sized population base indefinetely and then spent a couple of hundreds of thousands of years travelling we would eventually reach another starsystem where life could exist.
That is if we don't succomb to any of the countless potential ways to die along the way.
And even if we did get to another system, and even if it did contain life, chances are rather slim that life would be close to our intelligence level or beyond.
So we would basically have to travel through the universe forever to find the aliens we want.
It's all just way too impractical though don't you think?
I doubt we will ever get the chance or have the audacity to do such a thing.
It is also unlikely that another race would do something similar to this idea.
The things we see in our beloved science fiction series and movies are great and inspiring, but in the end they're just fantasies and that's all they'll ever be.

 

[Graybrew1]

Thanks for the book info, I will have to see if I can get it on my kindle.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Hmm, do you believe in aliens??

I think it is pretty arrogant to assume we are or have been the only "intelligently" evolved species in the entire galaxy, but at this stage, it is impossible to prove or disprove thier existance. We do know there is "life" out there, even if it is only microbes and such, but it is life.

 

[Stonelesscutter]

Back on topic, the Drake Equation:

The Drake equation states that:

View attachment 3821

where:

N = the number of civilizations in our galaxy with which communication might be possible;

and

R* = the average rate of star formation per year in our galaxy
fp = the fraction of those stars that have planets
ne = the average number of planets that can potentially support life per star that has planets
fℓ = the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop life at some point
fi = the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop intelligent life
fc = the fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into space
L = the length of time for which such civilizations release detectable signals into space.

Historical estimate of the parameters:

Considerable disagreement on the values of most of these parameters exists, but the values used by Drake and his colleagues in 1961 were:

• R* = 10/year (10 stars formed per year, on the average over the life of the galaxy)
• fp = 0.5 (half of all stars formed will have planets)
• ne = 2 (stars with planets will have 2 planets capable of developing life)
• fl = 1 (100% of these planets will develop life)
• fi = 0.01 (1% of which will be intelligent life)
• fc = 0.01 (1% of which will be able to communicate)
• L = 10,000 years (which will last 10,000 years)

Drake's values give N = 10 × 0.5 × 2 × 1 × 0.01 × 0.01 × 10,000 = 10.

I find this Drake equation to be semi-scientific. A part of science is to construct a theory about something using common sense, observations and some guesswork. Then it's the proving of the theory that tops it of.
The first 3 factors of the equation can actually be estimated within a reasonable margin. The latter 4 factors can however (at least at the moment) not be estimated in any way.
Also I find that the very last factor is completely useless in this equation. I don't understand why Drake felt he had to multiply his equation by this factor.
Even if you can estimate the length of time for which civilizations would release detectable signals into space, it doesn't mean that that time is now.
There could be hundreds of millions of years between the release of signals by different civilizations. This factor completely ignores that aspect.
It seems like that one is just put in there to make the result of the equation more appealing to the public (and perhaps more importantly to people that could fund SETI-like projects).
Perhaps the entire result of the equation should be divided by the total amount of years the universe has existed so far. Would that make more sense?

 

[Stonelesscutter]

Having read up on the discussion about God and aliens, I must say I find it surprising that nobody has brought up the thesis that God could be seen as an alien.
It's practically the main theme of our most beloved series for heaven's sake.

On a seperate note and to be more on topic...
To find life other than microbes outside of earth, we don't necessarily have to look in other star systems.
There could be life on some of the moons of Jupiter, Saturn and perhaps even Neptune.

 

[Overmind One]

the one human concept that will eventually be the end of us all.

I agree with that. I believe in a "higher power" but that higher power is not a humanoid or some emotional being that reacts to what we do on earth. I believe in alien life, but I do not believe in UFOs or that they have been visiting here. I also believe that any alien intelligence which DID go to another planet would be doing so to look for resources, not to pay us a visit. If it ever happens that we are visited by an alien civilization, that they will be here because they want something we have. There is no logical reason why any civilization would explore "just because", no matter how we like to portray it in science fiction. A searching civilization is a poor civilization looking for new resources.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Having read up on the discussion about God and aliens, I must say I find it surprising that nobody has brought up the thesis that God could be seen as an alien.
It's practically the main theme of our most beloved series for heaven's sake.

On a seperate note and to be more on topic...
To find life other than microbes outside of earth, we don't necessarily have to look in other star systems.
There could be life on some of the moons of Jupiter, Saturn and perhaps even Neptune.

I was just trying to avoid the whole religion aspect here

 

[Mr. A]

Some posts here were moved to Flame Hell. Just keep the discussion civil, don't insult other members and more-or-less on topic.