Windows 10 has arrived! And for now, it's FREE!

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
Like I said up thread, I am not defending. Personally I would have deployed it differently like I already stated. And yes Google Now uses the exact same stuff and on many newer Androids it comes already turned on.

Prove that. Even the Nexus does not have it turned on by default. You are defending Microsoft again, without considering that they might indeed be up to no good...yet AGAIN. With all of the PROVEN spying and recording of user data and known sharing with the NSA, you are just poo pooing it and saying "everyone does it" when they don't.

Also I am not talking about motives or conspiracies or alleged NSA stuff, just the physical mechanics of what a personal assistant uses to operate. Really to me this isn't worth an argument and the functions can be turned on/off by users easily.

There is nothing "alleged" regarding the relationship between Microsoft and the NSA. Microsoft was the very FIRST to open their operating system to them. And the fact that these things are turned on by default cannot be explained easily. Yes, users can turn them off. But that is still no excuse. Microsoft does not explain the exposure to the end user if they should choose "express setup". I am a professional, so I am looking for these things. Average Joe or Jane will not look for them.

Already, some tech people are seeing what I see, and that is to wait for some time until users sort it out and watch to see how Microsoft uses the excessive amount of data it collects by default, along with other security and operational issues that it might have.

http://www.computerworld.com/article/2953307/microsoft-windows/windows-10-is-for-suckers.html
 
Last edited:

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
Based on comments in another thread I reserved a free copy of Windows 10 a couple of weeks ago. I received a confirmation email about that, and have been expecting another one to prompt me to download it, but so far that hasn't happened. Based on things stated here I'm not sure I want to, but if I did, do I just click on the "Get Windows 10" icon down in the task bar?

Clicking on the icon will take you to where you can "reserve" your copy. Once done, it will download automatically and then you can install it. Read up on it first if you can. Try to get to somebody who already has it installed and play around with it. I love the speed of it, but I am obviously not happy with the steps back they have taken in being intrusive and disregarding personal privacy.
 
Last edited:

Joelist

What ship is this?
Staff member
Again?

Your link goes to an article which not only contains nothing that relates to what you stated but is also from a notorious ABM FUD troll who makes provably false statements in his article ( like Office 2003 not running in Windows 10; as I sit here watching my friend use Word 2003 under Windows 10 with no issues).

Why are you trying to pick a fight here? It's not fight worthy. For whatever reason you distrust Microsoft and trust Google. Okay. People are different.
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
Again?

Your link goes to an article which not only contains nothing that relates to what you stated but is also from a notorious ABM FUD troll who makes provably false statements in his article ( like Office 2003 not running in Windows 10; as I sit here watching my friend use Word 2003 under Windows 10 with no issues).

Why are you trying to pick a fight here? It's not fight worthy. For whatever reason you distrust Microsoft and trust Google. Okay. People are different.

I am pushing back against the excuses you are making for Microsoft with this shit they have put into Windows 10 and hoping readers will ignore them and go and investigate for themselves. It is fight worthy when I took the time to cheer for the awesomeness that is Windows 10 by making this thread and being willing to install it on every Windows instance I have, only to find out that Microsoft has poisoned it. I feel betrayed...yet again.

Please list any phone which has Google Now turned on by default. Also, please list any Android phone made by any manufacturer which collects and transmits my swype strokes, my typing and caches my wifi password and sends it to every contact synced to the phone. Name any desktop OS which does any of that by default.

Linux still rules.
 

Bluce Ree

Tech Admin / Council Member
Again?

Your link goes to an article which not only contains nothing that relates to what you stated but is also from a notorious ABM FUD troll who makes provably false statements in his article ( like Office 2003 not running in Windows 10; as I sit here watching my friend use Word 2003 under Windows 10 with no issues).

Why are you trying to pick a fight here? It's not fight worthy. For whatever reason you distrust Microsoft and trust Google. Okay. People are different.

It's not really what he's saying. Google is up front about their intentions. They don't make you install stuff under false pretenses or push obfuscated forced updates then act like they're a charity giving all that free stuff away out of the goodness of their hearts. Microsoft doesn't advertise their intentions openly. When they give something away, you really need to read between the lines.
 

Joelist

What ship is this?
Staff member
As to Overmind's points, everything he listed is either standard protocols for a Personal Assistant program or is simply an infrastructure to allow an app to request permission. And it is all easily turned off (though in many cases there is no privacy reason to do so). A lot of these settings have been around (just under different names) in Windows and other OSes for many years.

Messaging for example is the latest version of the Messaging service Windows has had from its NT roots. It now has the ability (like OSX does) to send and receive MMS if you synch up with your phone and have the proper messaging app (for example Verizon provides one). If we're going to claim that it is somehow reading your phone's texting and sending it somewhere then proof is required as not only is that illegal without consent but technologically would be a real trick.

Radio is another example. It is the newest edition of the Bluetooth type services from NT land. All you're doing by turning it on is letting Bluetooth devices you previously paired with your laptop auto-connect when you bring them together. For example, I have a Bluetooth PowerPoint presentation controller/laser pointer. With Radio turned on it auto connects when I turn the device on - if Radio is turned off I have to turn on the device and then turn BT on and re-pair the two.

Note that I did agree with the basic issue of Cortana being default on at installation. I would have had a splash wizard run on first startup explaining Cortana and what it does and asking the user if they want it to be on. That would not only ensure people know what they are enabling but be a good way to advertise Cortana also - and Cortana is a VERY well designed personal assistant. But MS has its folibles and among them have always been ham handed marketing and also ham fisted methodology in rolling out new functionalities.

However, it seems that if I do anything but rail against Microsoft I am defending it. I like to dig into what things do and get context that way - as witnessed my posts on this forum about topics as esoteric as the internal structure of a CPU and a SOC, the architecture of integrated graphics and so on. That to me is not defending anything - it is me doing the type of digging I love to do (curiosity bump as witnessed by my bizarre system configuration as noted in another thread).
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
Really Bluce? Google's new privacy policy when read carefully shows that they monitor everything you do on every device and that there is no opt out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=106&v=BKDH2HWQ7V4

That is misleading (and from 2012). When you install Chrome in Windows or Linux or OSX, it can only "monitor everything" that happens in Chrome and not outside of Chrome. If you have a Chromebook, however, that is not the case. And I have seen exactly three Chromebooks in the wild. Chrome cannot turn on a webcam or a microphone without your knowledge. Android cannot hide code behind a proprietary license like Microsoft and Apple do. But the biggest difference between Microsoft and Google is that Microsoft's PRIMARY source of income is the sale of their operating system to the military and to the government (NSA, FBI, ATF, NASA, The Pentagon), whereas advertising is the primary source of income for Google.

What I am doing here is telling people what Windows 10 is doing right out of the box. Anyone installing Windows 10 can see what is turned on by default in the Privacy settings in Windows 10 even if they never see this website. THIS IS WRONG. It is a positive thing to say it's wrong instead of quickly and desperately trying to find ways to explain it away or allow Microsoft to feed you an excuse. I am going further to warn people not to install it just yet. It will be free for a while.
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
As to Overmind's points, everything he listed is either standard protocols for a Personal Assistant program or is simply an infrastructure to allow an app to request permission. And it is all easily turned off (though in many cases there is no privacy reason to do so). A lot of these settings have been around (just under different names) in Windows and other OSes for many years.

(rolling sleeves up now) Dude, you are cheerleading for Microsoft again. You frankly are being very naive about this. No Personal Assistant program from any developer in any platform comes turned on by default. None of them can secretly turn on your webcam and/or microphone without requesting your permission except the one in Windows 10. And your statement that these brand new and only on Windows 10 features have "been around for years" is false. Please prove what you say. I can prove that Microsoft has given the NSA backdoors and access to their operating systems since 1999, and that this is functionality BUILT IN specifically to give them access (and they got paid handsomely for that access to be included). The Xbox One was to have this same intrusive functionality with cameras and such, but the exposure of the intrusive "features" instead killed the Xbox One. Here is an article from 2013:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2520707/FBI-spy-webcam-triggering-indicator-light.html

Messaging for example is the latest version of the Messaging service Windows has had from its NT roots. It now has the ability (like OSX does) to send and receive MMS if you synch up with your phone and have the proper messaging app (for example Verizon provides one). If we're going to claim that it is somehow reading your phone's texting and sending it somewhere then proof is required as not only is that illegal without consent but technologically would be a real trick.

Windows 10 reads SMS, MMS and also tags who you sent them to and any responses. Google uses that information to direct advertising, Microsoft sends it to the NSA for a fee. Big difference there.
Radio is another example. It is the newest edition of the Bluetooth type services from NT land. All you're doing by turning it on is letting Bluetooth devices you previously paired with your laptop auto-connect when you bring them together. For example, I have a Bluetooth PowerPoint presentation controller/laser pointer. With Radio turned on it auto connects when I turn the device on - if Radio is turned off I have to turn on the device and then turn BT on and re-pair the two.

Huh??? The radio control in Windows 10 means ALL radios. That means Wifi, Bluetooth, and if it has one, NFC. On my computer or phone, if I turn my radios off (like Bluetooth or Wifi), it stays off. Windows 10 can turn them on and off whenever they want. YOU ARE MAKING EXCUSES FOR MICROSOFT!
Note that I did agree with the basic issue of Cortana being default on at installation. I would have had a splash wizard run on first startup explaining Cortana and what it does and asking the user if they want it to be on. That would not only ensure people know what they are enabling but be a good way to advertise Cortana also - and Cortana is a VERY well designed personal assistant. But MS has its folibles and among them have always been ham handed marketing and also ham fisted methodology in rolling out new functionalities.

Cortana is great...but unless I invite her into my bed, she should not be there.

However, it seems that if I do anything but rail against Microsoft I am defending it. I like to dig into what things do and get context that way - as witnessed my posts on this forum about topics as esoteric as the internal structure of a CPU and a SOC, the architecture of integrated graphics and so on. That to me is not defending anything - it is me doing the type of digging I love to do (curiosity bump as witnessed by my bizarre system configuration as noted in another thread).

You are not just being objective here, you are defending Microsoft. You have done it before. Instead of taking an objective look at some of these draconian intrusions and looking outside of Microsoft for the answers, you post links FROM Microsoft to defend their presence and functionality, using Microsoft's company prepared excuses. You still have not explained why Windows 10 sends a wifi access password to my contacts without asking. How is that a feature?

FACTS:
  • Microsoft's biggest enterprise client is the United States government.
  • The NSA network is a Windows network, as is the FBI, DHS, ATF, CIA and all branches of the military and National Guard.
  • Microsoft's income comes from sales of Windows and the sales of Office and Server and other products. They rely on SALES. Google relies on being paid by advertisers. Google is not selling Android. It collects as much data, but that data goes to enhance targeted advertising.
  • Every version of Windows starting with NT has built in functionality to facilitate access for government agencies who have paid for this functionality.
How about you check on those claims and see if there is anything to them instead of quickly searching Microsoft's website for their excuses?

Nothing personal here Joelist! But I am not going to back down on this one or read any of the excuses without presenting the other side of the story. :)
 
Last edited:

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
Let the show begin....:)

windows10spying.png


http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/07/30/windows-10-privacy-settings/

Excerpt:

Conventional wisdom has it that Microsoft’s fight for technological relevance is against Apple. For a time that was true, but as of late they’ve effectively ceded the floor to the Cupertino mob when it comes to hardware (although I hope the Surface Pro line continues – I’m a big fan) and have once again narrowed their computing focus to software. The battle there is against Google, whose search, browser and productivity tools increasingly form a loose, web-based operating system. People aren’t so hot on paying for things these days, which means the money comes from harvesting data and flogging it to advertisers and other organisations who want to know exactly what we’re all up to online. Microsoft want a piece of that, so if you ever wondered why they’ve made the Windows 10 upgrade free to Win 7 & 8 users, here’s one possible answer. Windows 10 has all sorts of user tracking baked right in.

I am certain there will be lots more of this stuff being talked about in the months to come.
 

Joelist

What ship is this?
Staff member
At least his blog post is more or less on point. He is wrong however about needing to go to an external website to nuke the advertising ID - that is right in the Settings.
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
At least his blog post is more or less on point. He is wrong however about needing to go to an external website to nuke the advertising ID - that is right in the Settings.

Ya know Joe...I actually LOVE Windows 10. I have been testing it like you have, and I fell in love with it. I was gushing about it here before they released the final version. And in the Technical Preview, these features were active and I accepted them because I assumed they were to allow Microsoft to polish and prepare the final product. In the TP, they even monitored when I opened files, and had permission to read the files and also send them back to Microsoft to analyze them. I was only using it in a virtual machine, so that did not matter.

Then, I waited in great anticipation for the upgrade, and I did the upgrade and the anger I feel comes from the fact that many of the overly intrusive things actually made it into the final product, and is even more hidden than in the Technical Preview! I again have it in a virtual machine, but I was planning to upgrade two of my older laptops and I have changed my mind. Perhaps in 2 months? I do have my complete and registered Windows 10 VM though. :)
 

Bluce Ree

Tech Admin / Council Member
Really Bluce? Google's new privacy policy when read carefully shows that they monitor everything you do on every device and that there is no opt out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=106&v=BKDH2HWQ7V4

I'm not arguing any of that. I'm telling you that Google doesn't make a secret of it.

And, yes, there is an opt-out. Simply don't create an account or don't log into one.
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
Okay, an update....

The tech community and power users (and network administrators) of Windows in the enterprise and home are exposing the intrusions.

http://bgr.com/2015/07/31/windows-10-upgrade-spying-how-to-opt-out/

To be fair, Google collects even more information and also puts it together in such a way that things are cross referenced multiple ways. You can control all of that in Android and all Google products. You can also see what has already been collected and selectively or mass delete the data. You cannot do that with Windows 10. Do not opt out, and you cannot view most of the data that Windows collects even though you can opt out of the collections. You cannot delete what has already been collected.
 

Bluce Ree

Tech Admin / Council Member
Okay, an update....

The tech community and power users (and network administrators) of Windows in the enterprise and home are exposing the intrusions.

http://bgr.com/2015/07/31/windows-10-upgrade-spying-how-to-opt-out/

To be fair, Google collects even more information and also puts it together in such a way that things are cross referenced multiple ways. You can control all of that in Android and all Google products. You can also see what has already been collected and selectively or mass delete the data. You cannot do that with Windows 10. Do not opt out, and you cannot view most of the data that Windows collects even though you can opt out of the collections. You cannot delete what has already been collected.

That's a big one Microsoft proponents neglect to point out.
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
That's a big one Microsoft proponents neglect to point out.

They way they have it set up, Cortana will not work without allowing it to "get to know you". By contrast, anybody who picks up my phone and taps the Google Now app will be able to do whatever I do without it having to "get to know" anyone. Also, if you do decide to use Cortana, you MUST enable location services. Google Now only asks for your location when you are using apps like navigation or Gas Buddy. Cortana will check your location at regular intervals even when you are not using your phone or Cortana services. Here, just go over this list and see how it works. It seems similar to Google's practices, but it is vastly different.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/cortana-privacy-faq

The mobile functionality which is built into Windows 10 becomes a hindrance when on a desktop machine. Still, it has some great "Oh, that is cool!" stuff in it. Windows 10 has a native PDF printer, a native built in screen recorder for games and presentations, the snipping tool now has a timer on it so you can take snapshots at regular intervals, and the Command Prompt has some hotkeys and added functionality as well. Unfortunately, this sort of built in functionality allows unprecedented risk of compromise (spying), Hows about remotely running that real-time screen recorder app silently and then sending the recordings out from your computer? Ditto for regularly timed snapshots of your screen, That Windows PDF printer is part of Windows 10 and therefore falls under the EULA for Windows and is no longer under your complete control. Add that to the keylogger and no asterisks are going to hide your passwords.

This Windows has taken the shortest time from Beta to Final build and that is cause for concern even though W10 feels stable and polished. I am still uncomfortable with giving it my blessing, much less running it on one of my regularly used machines. I have been using my VM of Windows 10, since I can literally carry it around on a hard drive and just fire it up on whatever machine I am using which has VMware Workstation 11 on it or VMware Player.
 
Last edited:

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
maxresdefault.jpg


As I expected, the Geek Community has already created a packaged app which destroys most of the Windows 10 spying:

http://www.majorgeeks.com/files/details/destroy_windows_10_spying.html

This particular website has created many such tools in the past, and they have amongst their geek crew people who once worked for Microsoft (or still do). They have ex-military geeks (like me), and some former and current Data Security experts.

The media is blowing the lid off the spying "features" in Windows 10

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2015/08/05/stop-windows-10-spying-dead-in-its-tracks-with-one-free-app/
http://krwgnews22.com/technology-22...soft-windows-10-can-be-spying-on-you-508.html
http://news.softpedia.com/news/dest...ks-microsoft-s-tracking-services-488673.shtml
http://www.wnd.com/2015/08/windows-10-spies-on-emails-images-credit-cards-more/

There is a lot more, but suffice it to say that Microsoft is going to have to address it. This whole snafu reminds me of the very first discovery that Microsoft had built in codes to allow the NSA, FBI or other government agency to secretly access everything on the Windows NT Server (and workstation). Same with every edition that came afterwards. Here is an article from that time:

http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/5/5263/1.html

Excerpt:

Careless mistake reveals subversion of Windows by NSA.
A CARELESS mistake by Microsoft programmers has revealed that special access codes prepared by the US National Security Agency have been secretly built into Windows. The NSA access system is built into every version of the Windows operating system now in use, except early releases of Windows 95 (and its predecessors). The discovery comes close on the heels of the revelations earlier this year that another US software giant, Lotus, had built an NSA "help information" trapdoor into its Notes system, and that security functions on other software systems had been deliberately crippled.

The first discovery of the new NSA access system was made two years ago by British researcher Dr Nicko van Someren. But it was only a few weeks ago when a second researcher rediscovered the access system. With it, he found the evidence linking it to NSA.

Computer security specialists have been aware for two years that unusual features are contained inside a standard Windows software "driver" used for security and encryption functions. The driver, called ADVAPI.DLL, enables and controls a range of security functions. If you use Windows, you will find it in the C:\Windows\system directory of your computer.

ADVAPI.DLL works closely with Microsoft Internet Explorer, but will only run cryptographic functions that the US governments allows Microsoft to export. That information is bad enough news, from a European point of view. Now, it turns out that ADVAPI will run special programmes inserted and controlled by NSA. As yet, no-one knows what these programmes are, or what they do.

The "features" like the keylogger, the screen capture and secretly storing the data until it could be accessed later is EXACTLY the feature list of employee monitoring spyware programs which I have installed (by directive) on hundreds of computers in the enterprise.
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
Here is a great video showing how to blind most of Microsoft's spying features (Intermediate skill level). The process will take about 20 minutes to an hour, depending on how leisurely you go.


You should know that Edge and the Bing search engine have data collections which are separate from Cortana's data collection, and separate from Windows 10 data collections. When you decide to turn off Cortana and/or use a local Windows account instead of a Microsoft Account, Edge will reconfigure itself accordingly. (!)

My recommendations:

  • Do not use Edge in Windows 10. Install and use Chrome instead.
  • Do not use any of Microsoft's cloud services.
  • Do not use Bing as your search provider. Use Google.
  • Once disabling Windows 10 spyware features, you can safely use Skype.
  • Get to know Windows 10 navigation. When you find things by using the Search box, that information is stored. Going directly does not store the info.
If you are a geek, you owe yourself a promise to look under the hood of the shiny new OS you were given for "free". This Windows should have been named Windows BB (Windows Big Brother). Microsoft has never had this level of surveillance available to it before.

Xbox One:

Xbox One was pretty much torpedoed when geeks discovered that the Kinect camera and microphone could be remotely activated and that data could be sent back to Microsoft during it's (then mandatory) "check-in" online every 24 hours. Today, it is a failure like Windows 8 and Playstation 4 has eaten it's lunch and dinner and wont let it even sit at the cool table.
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
Again, very predictable. The geek perceptions of Windows 10 are moving it into "ominous" territory. Some are nicknaming it the "Windows NSA Edition".

http://www.decryptedtech.com/news/suspected-windows-10-spying-will-impact-future-sales

Excerpt:

There are already jokes and meme that paint Windows 10 as Windows NSA edition, this is not a good sign for the future commercial success of Microsoft’s next operating system. It also does not bode well for the security of the OS as we all know that any monitoring tools can be used by the “bad guys” to get information as well

:rolleye0014:

Why does Microsoft still think it is the only game in town? Google Docs and other programs have eclipsed MS Office in use worldwide. Windows itself is still running the majority of the world's PCs and laptops, and is still the backbone of the business enterprises in most every nation. But that means Windows XP and Windows 7, not Windows 8 (or Windows 10). They are acting as if everyone will have no choice but to upgrade. Microsoft could make that happen too, by finding a way to make Windows 7 and prior "unappealing". They did it with Windows 98. I still have a VM of Windows 98 and you can hardly do anything in it in terms of online. You cannot install past IE9, but the older versions of Firefox will run in it. Many programs will not install in Windows 98.
 
Last edited:
Top