Why some people are incapable of Rational Thought, regardless of IQ

[Overmind One]

This article at Scientific American is interesting:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/a...onal-thought-the-thinking-that-iq-tests-miss/

No doubt you know several folks with perfectly respectable IQs who repeatedly make poor decisions. The behavior of such people tells us that we are missing something important by treating intelligence as if it encompassed all cognitive abilities. I coined the term “dysrationalia” (analogous to “dyslexia”), meaning the inability to think and behave rationally despite having adequate intelligence, to draw attention to a large domain of cognitive life that intelligence tests fail to assess. Although most people recognize that IQ tests do not measure every important mental faculty, we behave as if they do. We have an implicit assumption that intelligence and rationality go together—or else why would we be so surprised when smart people do foolish things?

This explains why many Mensa-level IQs wander the streets of Skid Row, and why some seemingly accomplished professionals exhibit a lack of complete Rational Thought (aka Common Sense). This is to say that despite a high tested IQ score, actual ability to perform Rational Thought is not tested. This is also true of things like creativity, the ability to "read" people by observing their behaviors, many other things.

The Mindware Gap

The second source of dysrationalia is a content problem. We need to acquire specific knowledge to think and act rationally. Harvard cognitive scientist David Perkins coined the term “mindware” to refer to the rules, data, procedures, strategies and other cognitive tools (knowledge of probability, logic and scientific inference) that must be retrieved from memory to think rationally. The absence of this knowledge creates a mindware gap—again, something that is not tested on typical intelligence tests.

Mindware gaps form when people are raised in isolated areas, without accompanying social knowledge gathering. If one has never been exposed to something, they cannot make rational decisions regarding that thing.

It is not irrational to touch a hot stove as a child, just ONCE. The knowledge of "OUCH!" and the sensation of heat has now equipped the child's mind with rational thinking ability regarding stoves. Irrational thinking is having to repeat the OUCH! routine more than once. This indicates a break in the thinking process. If a child believes in Santa Claus and then is told at the right age that he does not exist, the child's life experiences from the first tales of Santa as compared to the older child's perceptions makes the rational thought of there actually being a Santa not likely. An irrational thinker may continue to insist there is a Santa even after being shown proof that he does not exist

I find this fascinating....

 

[Jim of WVa]

This article at Scientific American is interesting:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/a...onal-thought-the-thinking-that-iq-tests-miss/



This explains why many Mensa-level IQs wander the streets of Skid Row, and why some seemingly accomplished professionals exhibit a lack of complete Rational Thought (aka Common Sense). This is to say that despite a high tested IQ score, actual ability to perform Rational Thought is not tested. This is also true of things like creativity, the ability to "read" people by observing their behaviors, many other things.



Mindware gaps form when people are raised in isolated areas, without accompanying social knowledge gathering. If one has never been exposed to something, they cannot make rational decisions regarding that thing.

It is not irrational to touch a hot stove as a child, just ONCE. The knowledge of "OUCH!" and the sensation of heat has now equipped the child's mind with rational thinking ability regarding stoves. Irrational thinking is having to repeat the OUCH! routine more than once. This indicates a break in the thinking process. If a child believes in Santa Claus and then is told at the right age that he does not exist, the child's life experiences from the first tales of Santa as compared to the older child's perceptions makes the rational thought of there actually being a Santa not likely. An irrational thinker may continue to insist there is a Santa even after being shown proof that he does not exist

I find this fascinating....

More lies by people with a low IQ...

 

[Tripler]

Dam ,,, I still believe in Santa cuz a few years ago I was at home xmass eve and my wife and I heard dear hooves on our roof . Freeked me out !!! . Another time I was at the mall seeing our favorite Santa and I watched him walk away from Us after seeing us to go on his break and he was walking away and he dissapeared right in front of me as he moved away ... Crazy huh . I'm sure both can be explained but for me it was pretty cool . Our santa is actually a proffesional wildlife photogropher and spends a lot of time up north . He showed us some of his pics ... Coincidence ? Who knows lol but its fun to think he is real and as far as Santa's go , he is truly the best Santa I have ever met . Yes , his beard also was real .

 

[Tripler]

Sorry ... That went a bit off topic or maybe not lol ...

 

[Overmind One]

More lies by people with a low IQ...

Scientific American scientists...low IQ, Right. There is a reason for this thread, and you know EXACTLY what it is. You are proving it correct. The article is quite comprehensive, backing every aspect of the study with empirical data. Yet, your response is a simple:

"More lies by people with a low IQ..."

 

[Overmind One]

For emphasis, this is the title of the article:

Rational and Irrational Thought: The Thinking That IQ Tests Miss
Why smart people sometimes do dumb things.

The piece, in brief (from Scientific American): http://www.scientificamerican.com/a...onal-thought-the-thinking-that-iq-tests-miss/

In Brief

Who are You Calling “Smart”?

• Traditional IQ tests miss some of the most important aspects of real-world decision making. It is possible to test high in IQ yet to suffer from the logical-thought defect known as dysrationalia.
• One cause of dysrationalia is that people tend to be cognitive misers, meaning that they take the easy way out when trying to solve problems, often leading to solutions that are wrong.
• Another cause of dysrationalia is the mindware gap, which occurs when people lack the specific knowledge, rules and strategies needed to think rationally.
• Tests do exist that can measure dysrationalia, and they should be given more often to pick up the deficiencies that IQ tests miss.

I do not call somebody who believes in provably false nonsense "smart". It isn't even just the belief system, it is the overall way one understands and communicates things, Especially their REASONS for doing things the way they do. IQ tests are irrelevant. This is more proof of that.

 

[Overmind One]

Dam ,,, I still believe in Santa cuz a few years ago I was at home xmass eve and my wife and I heard dear hooves on our roof . Freeked me out !!! . Another time I was at the mall seeing our favorite Santa and I watched him walk away from Us after seeing us to go on his break and he was walking away and he dissapeared right in front of me as he moved away ... Crazy huh . I'm sure both can be explained but for me it was pretty cool . Our santa is actually a proffesional wildlife photogropher and spends a lot of time up north . He showed us some of his pics ... Coincidence ? Who knows lol but its fun to think he is real and as far as Santa's go , he is truly the best Santa I have ever met . Yes , his beard also was real .

I have this thing about the "Tree Monster". It is a camping story, and the Tree Monster lives in the forest and he is invisible until at night and then he can walk like a person and grab people and stuff. Of course, I had to rig strings in the trees and drop leaves on my nephew's sleeping bag inside his tent as "proof" of the Tree Monster's curiosity! I am gonna miss that kid when he grows into a man.

 

[Overmind One]

I read the article on cognitive miserliness. It did not say what you want it to say.

No, you are the one with the low IQ. Wallow in your pseudoscience nonsense:

http://atlantablackstar.com/2015/01...-sailed-to-the-americas-long-before-columbus/

My IQ is much higher than yours, and that much is obvious. Day after day you telegraph EXACTLY when the limits of your intellect are reached. You are not only not on my level intellectually, but you cannot even get there. But I am going to move your black-centric nonsense to "you know where". Your rational mind should have prevented you from posting this tripe in the open forums.

 

[YJ02]

This article at Scientific American is interesting:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/a...onal-thought-the-thinking-that-iq-tests-miss/



This explains why many Mensa-level IQs wander the streets of Skid Row, and why some seemingly accomplished professionals exhibit a lack of complete Rational Thought (aka Common Sense). This is to say that despite a high tested IQ score, actual ability to perform Rational Thought is not tested. This is also true of things like creativity, the ability to "read" people by observing their behaviors, many other things.



Mindware gaps form when people are raised in isolated areas, without accompanying social knowledge gathering. If one has never been exposed to something, they cannot make rational decisions regarding that thing.

It is not irrational to touch a hot stove as a child, just ONCE. The knowledge of "OUCH!" and the sensation of heat has now equipped the child's mind with rational thinking ability regarding stoves. Irrational thinking is having to repeat the OUCH! routine more than once. This indicates a break in the thinking process. If a child believes in Santa Claus and then is told at the right age that he does not exist, the child's life experiences from the first tales of Santa as compared to the older child's perceptions makes the rational thought of there actually being a Santa not likely. An irrational thinker may continue to insist there is a Santa even after being shown proof that he does not exist

I find this fascinating....

a lot of this goes back to the classic studies of "nature vs nurture"

one can be born with a high ability to learn (IQ) but never develop it because it was never fostered and grown (nurture)

there are several excellent twins studies on these things

---------------------

some ppl with good/high iq's may have been nurtured but due to other environmental factors in their post nurture yrs (teen and up) then begin to "mask" their intellect and abilities

a classic ex of this is the kid who is innately smart but then hides it and dumbs himself down to fit in with his peer group

he later finds himself working far below his capabilities and constanlty pissed at his "stupid bosses"

 

[Overmind One]

Jim,

Because this thread is in the open forums, you will have to discuss the topic without injecting "race" into it. I moved the threads which racebait to the bait barrel. Unless you can scrape together some RATIONAL arguments and have a RATIONAL debate, I believe you will be unable to participate in this thread without devolving into racial nonsense. You are NOT up to it. You never will be.

If you mention any "races" or continually derail the topic, I will just keep you off this particular thread. Can you handle it? I can. I have not mentioned any race stuff.

 

[Jim of WVa]

My IQ is much higher than yours, and that much is obvious. Day after day you telegraph EXACTLY where the limits of your intellect are reached. You are not only not on my level intellectually, but you cannot even get there. But I am going to move your black-centric nonsense to "you know where". Your rational mind should have prevented you from posting this tripe in the open forums.

You have presented no documentary evidence that this is so.

 

[YJ02]

Dam ,,, I still believe in Santa cuz a few years ago I was at home xmass eve and my wife and I heard dear hooves on our roof . Freeked me out !!! . Another time I was at the mall seeing our favorite Santa and I watched him walk away from Us after seeing us to go on his break and he was walking away and he dissapeared right in front of me as he moved away ... Crazy huh . I'm sure both can be explained but for me it was pretty cool . Our santa is actually a proffesional wildlife photogropher and spends a lot of time up north . He showed us some of his pics ... Coincidence ? Who knows lol but its fun to think he is real and as far as Santa's go , he is truly the best Santa I have ever met . Yes , his beard also was real .

the hooves on your roof were real..it was when you had snow to your eavesdrops and the local whitetails decided to graze on your asphalt covered roofing...

 

[Overmind One]

You have presented no documentary evidence that this is so.

It is all about BEHAVIORS. The way people see things and especially WHY they see them in those ways. Somebody claiming to be intelligent who cannot think rationally is a wash.

Do you believe you think rationally Jim?

 

[YJ02]

Because this thread is in the open forums, you will have to discuss the topic without injecting "race" into it. I moved the threads which racebait to the bait barrel. Unless you can scrape together some RATIONAL arguments and have a RATIONAL debate, I believe you will be unable to participate in this thread without devolving into racial nonsense. You are NOT up to it. You never will be.

If you mention any "races" or continually derail the topic, I will just keep you off this particular thread. Can you handle it? I can. I have not mentioned any race stuff.

uh...neither have I.

since you didn't qte anyone and your post follows mine, I'll assume your admonishing is addressed to me

there is nothing in my post remotely connected to the false construct of "race"

 

[Overmind One]

a lot of this goes back to the classic studies of "nature vs nurture"

once can be born with a high ability to learn (IQ) but never develop it because it was never fostered and grown (nurture)

there are several excellent twins studies on these things

---------------------

some ppl with good/high iq's may have been nurtured but due to other environmental factors in their post nurture yrs (teen and up) then begin to "mask" their intellect and abilities

a classic ex of this is the kid who is innately smart but then hides it and dumbs himself down to fit in with his peer group

he later finds himself working far below his capabilities and constanlty pissed at his "stupid bosses"

This is excellent and true. Another example is when somebody is incarcerated and they dump their previous persona for a tough one to protect themselves. Yet another is somebody from a higher class who is forced into a lower class setting. Guess the intellect level of somebody like Ted Cruz, against somebody like Donald Trump. Yes, Donald is brash and rude and infuriating, but he sure is not dumb. He thinks rationally, even though his conclusions are...radical. Ted Cruz is just not on the level. He seems to border on mild retardation (sorta like GW Bush). Listening to him speak and watching him and digesting what he is saying just makes you cock your head.
--- merged: Aug 18, 2015 at 6:22 PM ---

uh...neither have I.

since you didn't qte anyone and your post follows mine, I'll assume your admonishing is addressed to me

there is nothing in my post remotely connected to the false construct of "race"

No! That was to Jim. You are totally cool...

 

[Overmind One]

This is excellent and true. Another example is when somebody is incarcerated and they dump their previous persona for a tough one to protect themselves. Yet another is somebody from a higher class who is forced into a lower class setting. Guess the intellect level of somebody like Ted Cruz, against somebody like Donald Trump. Yes, Donald is brash and rude and infuriating, but he sure is not dumb. He thinks rationally, even though his conclusions are...radical. Ted Cruz is just not on the level. He seems to border on mild retardation (sorta like GW Bush). Listening to him speak and watching him and digesting what he is saying just makes you cock your head.
--- merged: Aug 18, 2015 at 6:22 PM ---


No! That was to Jim. You are totally cool...

I went back and fixed it.

 

[Overmind One]

You have presented no documentary evidence that this is so.

And I have no intention of doing so. I choose instead to DEMONSTRATE my rational thinking processes.

 

[Jim of WVa]

uh...neither have I.

since you didn't qte anyone and your post follows mine, I'll assume your admonishing is addressed to me

there is nothing in my post remotely connected to the false construct of "race"

His remarks were addressed to me, even though my comments, which caused him grief, were moved to Flame Hell.

The whole point of this thread was to denigrate the role IQ tests play in determining the intelligence of person or a group of persons. Unfortunately for him, the quoted Scientific American article does not say what he wants it to say. The article did not state that some people with a lower measured IQ are "smarter" than some people with a higher IQ score. The article merely documents the tendency of some high IQ people to not give a particular question all of the attention that it deserves. The first "trick" question presented in the article can be solved easily by constructing a truth table for the problem. The answer derived from the truth table is different than the answer most people give when they spend very little time thinking about the problem.

 

[Jim of WVa]

This is excellent and true. Another example is when somebody is incarcerated and they dump their previous persona for a tough one to protect themselves. Yet another is somebody from a higher class who is forced into a lower class setting. Guess the intellect level of somebody like Ted Cruz, against somebody like Donald Trump. Yes, Donald is brash and rude and infuriating, but he sure is not dumb. He thinks rationally, even though his conclusions are...radical. Ted Cruz is just not on the level. He seems to border on mild retardation (sorta like GW Bush). Listening to him speak and watching him and digesting what he is saying just makes you cock your head.
--- merged: Aug 18, 2015 at 6:22 PM ---


No! That was to Jim. You are totally cool...

Ted Cruz is smarter than you will ever be. Just ask Alan Dershowitz:

http://dailycaller.com/2013/05/09/dershowitz-tex-cruz-one-of-harvard-laws-smartest-students/

 

[Overmind One]

Ted Cruz is smarter than you will ever be. Just ask Alan Dershowitz:

http://dailycaller.com/2013/05/09/dershowitz-tex-cruz-one-of-harvard-laws-smartest-students/

That is the point this article makes. Ted Cruz did great at Harvard (so did GW Bush), but his actual BEHAVIOR and the way he sees things and communicates his ideas are on the level of somebody mildly retarded (also like GW Bush). School credentials can be bought, forged and arbitrarily awarded. You cannot buy rational thought or vision.


The man is irrational. It does not matter where he went to school, what degrees he has or any of that. He is a nutcase. Isn’t THAT what matters? If I watch somebody be stunningly stupid and behave irrationally, it really will not matter.
--- merged: Aug 18, 2015 at 6:51 PM ---

Ted Cruz is smarter than you will ever be. Just ask Alan Dershowitz:

http://dailycaller.com/2013/05/09/dershowitz-tex-cruz-one-of-harvard-laws-smartest-students/

Rational thought. It's missing.