What do you consider GOOD science fiction?

[Gatefan1976]

The Doctor at least is a computer program. So long as there is a computer on the receiving end with sufficient processor, memory, a compatible basic operating system and holo emitters he can function. His memories after all are just stored code in his program. And Voyager was pretty good about respecting those parameters.

Then you face the option of considering that the brain/mind is a dualistic system and functions like a computer in order to even get to the point of a positronic or photonic brain as displayed by either Data or the Doctor respectively.
OR you cannot have such a system in the first place because consciousness is a function of emergent properties of the biological brain.

Pick your poison

 

[Bluce Ree]

Then you face the option of considering that the brain/mind is a dualistic system and functions like a computer in order to even get to the point of a positronic or photonic brain as displayed by either Data or the Doctor respectively.
OR you cannot have such a system in the first place because consciousness is a function of emergent properties of the biological brain.

Pick your poison

Correction on the doctor. His brain was a computer program.

 

[Backstep]

Okay, you do get it. . That was the other problem...memory. How could one go to earth via the stones, have new experiences (memories) which are stored...where? In the host brain or in the "ghost"? What happens with the brain of the host after the "ghost" leaves it? Do they remember that they were inhabited by the ghost? If not, why? Despite it being impossible, where is the power source in the stone which allows it to "find" the other stone billions of light years away? Being able to do that implies some sort of "listening" mode, and there needs to be some sort of signal transmitted and received in order for these transfers to take place.

They just fail no matter how they are looked at.
--- merged: Apr 28, 2014 at 6:19 PM ---


I didnt see it until I posted mine.

The stone work through Quantum Entanglement?

 

[Overmind One]

The Doctor at least is a computer program. So long as there is a computer on the receiving end with sufficient processor, memory, a compatible basic operating system and holo emitters he can function. His memories after all are just stored code in his program. And Voyager was pretty good about respecting those parameters.

I have a Roomba, which cleans my entire apartment every day. It knows when it is on carpet or wood, it will detect particularly soiled areas and clean them longer, and it remembers the rooms it cleans. Then, it finds it's charger and parks itself. It isnt too difficult to imagine a holographic "doctor" which can act based on health readings and other parameters programmed into it.

Padds in Trek are only access devices. They locally store a few files but the databases live on the main computer. Evidently, the storage on a tricorder is sufficient to store large programs as well.

 

[Joelist]

Or they can both possess consciousness - just consciousness that operates differently and hence is not cross compatible.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Correction on the doctor. His brain was a computer program.

I was more talking about having a program being even capable of learning and adapting to the level shown in the photonic beings in VOY display.

 

[Overmind One]

Then you face the option of considering that the brain/mind is a dualistic system and functions like a computer in order to even get to the point of a positronic or photonic brain as displayed by either Data or the Doctor respectively.
OR you cannot have such a system in the first place because consciousness is a function of emergent properties of the biological brain.

Pick your poison

But all of that is still science fiction. At no time does it fall into the realm of fantasy. Now Q, however.... He is essentially a god/wizard/warlock/leprechaun/fairy/demon...he is magical. I thought it was VERY funny that the "plane" on which the witches in Bewitched come from and move around in is also called the "Continuum".

The Doctor is plausible until you load him up into that "mobile emitter". Then, he becomes fantasy.

 

[Joelist]

I was more talking about having a program being even capable of learning and adapting to the level shown in the photonic beings in VOY display.

The notion of a SILS (Self Improving Learning System) has been a trope of science fiction going back to its beginning. The Terminator was also a SILS, as was Colossus, the M-9 computer in TOS and going back from there. Can you write a scientific sounding explanation of it? Sure. How plausible is it? More than the stones to put it lightly. The Roomba is a VERY primitive example of a rudimentary SILS.

 

[Bluce Ree]

The Doctor is plausible until you load him up into that "mobile emitter". Then, he becomes fantasy.

BINGO!

 

[Gatefan1976]

Padds in Trek are only access devices. They locally store a few files but the databases live on the main computer. Evidently, the storage on a tricorder is sufficient to store large programs as well.

Tricorders in ST have 3 isolinier chips for memory, each capable of storing 2 to the 215th power in kilobytes.
(damn, that's a lot)

 

[Overmind One]

The stone work through Quantum Entanglement?

This was brought up before when the show was running.


The problem of distance is addressed, but not transmission of information and especially not transmission of "consciousness". The thing to look at here is WHY those stones were in SGU and WHAT they did with them. They never attempted to explain their operation, they simply used them...a lot, and to do dumb shit on earth. THAT was their reason for existence and nothing more. There was no science involved in them at all.

 

[Gatefan1976]

The notion of a SILS (Self Improving Learning System) has been a trope of science fiction going back to its beginning. The Terminator was also a SILS, as was Colossus, the M-9 computer in TOS and going back from there. Can you write a scientific sounding explanation of it? Sure. How plausible is it? More than the stones to put it lightly. The Roomba is a VERY primitive example of a rudimentary SILS.

"how likely" is not an issue Joe. Can it be done? if your answer is no, "believability" is not even a consideration.

 

[Joelist]

If my answer were no then the plausible part of the equation would fail.

In a way both Data and the Doctor are fantasy because they not only are SILS but they possess consciousness and self awareness. Nothing we currently know indicates in any way that those attributes can be present outside of a biological framework. Even better, we have no realistic way to even know if we successfully did it because there is no objective way to tell if something/someone else has consciousness and/or self awareness because they are in part abstract concepts.

 

[Backstep]

This was brought up before when the show was running.


The problem of distance is addressed, but not transmission of information and especially not transmission of "consciousness". The thing to look at here is WHY those stones were in SGU and WHAT they did with them. They never attempted to explain their operation, they soimply used them...a lot, and to do dumb shit on earth. THAT was their reason for existence and nothing more. There was no science involved in them at all.

Quantum Entanglement can be used to explain both the stones ans subspace comms. I don't mind the stones, just the way SGU used them.

 

[Overmind One]

Tricorders in ST have 3 isolinier chips for memory, each capable of storing 2 to the 215th power in kilobytes.
(damn, that's a lot)

Yep, and I vaguely recall only one episode in TOS where a tricorder was actually re-purposed for use as a computing device (The City on the Edge of Forever). I dont know how big the Doctor's program is, but I would think he could be loaded into a tricorder. Why was the "Emergency Command Hologram" actually an AI of the Doctor INSIDE the Main Computer? How come the ship's computer is not sentient but a mere program living in it...is?

 

[Overmind One]

Quantum Entanglement can be used to explain both the stones ans subspace comms. I don't mind the stones, just the way SGU used them.

Transference of "consciousness" across billions of light years is pure magic. Really it is.

 

[Gatefan1976]

If my answer were no then the plausible part of the equation would fail.

In a way both Data and the Doctor are fantasy because they not only are SILS but they possess consciousness and self awareness. Nothing we currently know indicates in any way that those attributes can be present outside of a biological framework. Even better, we have no realistic way to even know if we successfully did it because there is no objective way to tell if something/someone else has consciousness and/or self awareness because they are in part abstract concepts.

And this good sir is ALL I have been saying. Strip away the pseudo science and you get left with fantasy with scientific possibilities. To me, probably the most important aspect of Sci-fi is how the technology (realistic or otherwise), or power affects US as a RACE, and how we develop. Fantasy on the other hand is more about how the same thing affects US as INDIVIDUALS, and how we develop personally. The other most important aspect is that Sci-fi tends to focus on the external for it's characters "power", whereas fantasy puts that power *inside* it's characters.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Yep, and I vaguely recall only one episode in TOS where a tricorder was actually re-purposed for use as a computing device (The City on the Edge of Forever). I dont know how big the Doctor's program is, but I would think he could be loaded into a tricorder. Why was the "Emergency Command Hologram" actually an AI of the Doctor INSIDE the Main Computer? How come the ship's computer is not sentient but a mere program living in it...is?

Memory Alpha is considered Sentient.
As to the size of the Doc's program, I don't know either.

 

[Backstep]

Transference of "consciousness" across billions of light years is pure magic. Really it is.

The pony express riders would say the same to mobile phones with there sounds and pictures. Before the Ancients ascension they created the gates(advanced form of transport) so why not a advance from of communications? The writers sucked at the job of explaining their new tech, so did trek tos. It was the fans that made the connections to plausible science.

 

[heisenberg]

To me, what makes good science fiction is how I like other genres. I want to be entertaining, memorable, engaging, captivating, funny, serious, though, not melodramatic, strong plot/story/amazing premise and great actors! It's also has to have a STRONG Science aspect to it. I realize nothing is perfect, and even star trek has a lot of plotholes( TNG having the most :p), as you'll see below :p, but don't treat the audience as if they are stupid!