Star Trek: Discovery versus The Orville - That Inevitable Comparison.

[Overmind One]

I'm still trying to figure out what CBS All Access offers that's worth anything. Other than their failed attempt at an original show the rest is either football, that you can already see on local channels, or reruns of regular CBS shows, many of which are already airing on free local channels too. So where is the value there? I keep thinking I'm missing something but for the life of me I can't figure it out.

The only thing worse than new Bollywood films, is reruns of bad Hollywood films and series.

 

[heisenberg]

You're right, the stock rising is not sustainable. This inflation of stock value has been done countless times before. I've worked at numerous companies that have done the same thing. It's all planned in advance: There's a planned period of spending and growth which creates demand for share holders. Valuation is overrated by industry "experts". Tons of people jump onto the train and buy in. The higher ups (CEO's, etc.) get special stock options (usually worth hundreds of millions in the case of CEO's) that they then cash out and/or monetize before the crash happens. Late comers to the game get shortchanged as the stock drops to a pathetic level.

*I remember when Bob Nardelli ran Home Depot. He was credited with creating a huge jump in stock value for the company in a short amount of time. (Sound familiar?) But then it went in the shitter (it got down to like $5 a share from what I recall) and he was forced to resign. But he walked away with a $210 million severance package. Talk about laughing all the way to the bank. The shareholders got screwed but the CEO not only got away unscathed, he became a very rich man.

As for Netflix, one clue that they are in a bubble is in the article where it says the company has a 60% year-to-date stock gain. That's insane. It's also unsustainable. The bubble will burst at some point in the future and all that debt that people are claiming isn't important will turn out to be very important.

The moral of the story is don't believe the hype.

(P.S. Why did it cost $16 million an episode for a hip-hop show? What could they possibly have spent that much money on? That is fiscal malfeasance at its best.)

Continued from the other thread. Yes and I think most people tend to push up the shareprice intentionally and then eventually sell when they need the cash.The way I do my investment is by simply waiting for that opportunity that people flee and then buy a small amount at the start and then buy some more during the dips and eventually I set a limit how much I am willing to risk, and that eventually ticks the SP up and up. So far that strategy has worked for me.

Anyway, Management are really have gone crazy. They've now going to spend 8 billion on so called original content. They think that having anime content is going to bring them more audience. As if they can try to compete with Japan Even then, 8 billion dollars...?Why does this stuff cost so much?

https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/16/16486436/netflix-original-content-8-billion-dollars-anime-films

On a video call with analysts this afternoon, Chief Content Officer Ted Sarandos clarified that a sizable chunk of that $8 billion will go toward toward producing 30 new anime series and 80 new original films, all slated for release in 2018'/quote]

One of the good fudamental analysis of a company is its free cash flow but does netflix have one? Nope...It has NEGATIVE cash flow and its expected to grow next year

Another Netflix flag being ignored by investors is its negative free cash flow, a metric that professional money managers follow closely. According to Netflix, its negative free cash flow was $465 million in the most recent quarter and is expected to hit negative $2 billion to $2.5 billion by the end of the year. Netflix plans to tap the debt market to finance its capital needs is another red flag that Wall Street would ordinarily raise for most companies.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonath...gnoring-netflixs-many-red-flags/#15945b8969a6

This is redflags and I wouldn't invest my money in this company if it has no free cash flow.

 

[heisenberg]

Exactly. Facebook, reddit (also Twitter, TVguide, Trek Core, TV.com) all the EASILY shilled standard social media outlets where spin lives. But what about the real world? You know, where nobody can be bought and where everyone is free of ads and not mixed in with stories about the Kardashians, Jennifer Lawrence and Apple product reviews?

How much cred do you put in those comments? That is the question. The studios throw the shill money where they expect people to be. It's logical, but not very effective. The vast majority of the fandom hates the show. Facebook, reddit and the others will delete negative reviews and comments and block the commenters. Exactly like they did for SGU and Defiance. Look where those shows are now.

Take a look at this:

http://variety.com/2017/digital/news/star-trek-discovery-cbs-subscription-revenue-1202579644/

“We expect to see an elevated level of daily revenue for the next week following the prior week’s elevated level of downloads,” the company said in its report.

However, this doesn’t mean that CBS is raking in Netflix-style money with the show just yet. App Annie estimated that the combined iOS and Android revenue for the CBS app was “well over $60,000 in the US” on October 1. This number doesn’t include any sign-ups that might have happened on CBS’ website or through connected devices.

CBS itself hasn’t released any concrete numbers on the revenue impact of “Star Trek: Discovery.” The broadcaster did share Tuesday that subscriber growth has been up more than 200 percent year-over-year since the debut of the show.

Wow. $60,000.00! At 8 MILLION PER EPISODE, they are well on their way, no? You have seen Discovery. You know it's shit. I have seen it too. I know it's shit. That is why when I read a comment with somebody saying how it's better than the other Star Treks and it is so well written and Michael is such an awesome, interesting character, I am nonplussed. I know it's spin and shilled out. Reading glowing comments when I know from personal viewing that it's shit makes me question the source, not my opinion.

I know that there are shills out there that like this series, who are probably the actors themselves, the writers, the staff behind the project who are only defending it to keep their jobs, but there are a few that like it too, however, you are right to say that a lot of the general public were put off from discovery. I asked a guy who I reguarily visit who is a star wars fan to checkout the new star trek, and he did not like it. He even said himself that this is just a bit too dark


I think they pushed season 2 to 2019 waiting to get more people onto CBS all access. They are taking a big gamble by thinking that people are going to watch this crap. We are already 5 episodes in, and with half the season almost over, you still don't know what on earth this series is about let alone the dry spell. However, I think they are going to be selling the licence for star trek i.e. they'll be showing season 1 on cbs in 2018 and then airing season 2 on cbs and cbs all access or they'll air the second half of season 2 first on cbs all access and then air it on cbs free to air a week or 2 later. That would have been a smarter move. Those that want to access it early, can pay a premium for it but those that want to wait and watch it for free with ads, have to wait 1 to 2 weeks or however many to get to enjoy it.

Oh yeah and now they've removed all previews of next episodes. I believe there is a hiatus on both Orville and STD.

 

[Overmind One]

I know that there are shills out there that like this series, who are probably the actors themselves, the writers, the staff behind the project who are only defending it to keep their jobs, but there are a few that like it too, however, you are right to say that a lot of the general public were put off from discovery. I asked a guy who I reguarily visit who is a star wars fan to checkout the new star trek, and he did not like it. He even said himself that this is just a bit too dark


I think they pushed season 2 to 2019 waiting to get more people onto CBS all access. They are taking a big gamble by thinking that people are going to watch this crap. We are already 5 episodes in, and with half the season almost over, you still don't know what on earth this series is about let alone the dry spell. However, I think they are going to be selling the licence for star trek i.e. they'll be showing season 1 on cbs in 2018 and then airing season 2 on cbs and cbs all access or they'll air the second half of season 2 first on cbs all access and then air it on cbs free to air a week or 2 later. That would have been a smarter move. Those that want to access it early, can pay a premium for it but those that want to wait and watch it for free with ads, have to wait 1 to 2 weeks or however many to get to enjoy it.

Oh yeah and now they've removed all previews of next episodes. I believe there is a hiatus on both Orville and STD.

There is always going to be an audience for anything made. There are people out there who still want SGU to be revived. And like somebody said earlier, if this show weren't supposed to be Star Trek, it would be a decent scifi action series. It is not something I want to watch, but I can see an audience for it. But CBS All Access needs it to draw subscribers to the service, and I think that whomever planned this out had expectations that were not met. It will weigh heavily on what happens in the second part of the season release. SGU had two seasons from the outset, but the performance of the first season is what killed it after the fact. It was canceled early in the second season. I am pretty sure this is falling short of what CBS wanted, so we have to watch and see what happens.

I think The Orville is seeing growth from the ratings. Perhaps we should post them here?

 

[YJ02]

Facebook, reddit and a lot of the comments still have people who like discovery.

yeah, i have seen that as well

online-FB, etc

and in person. hear ppl talking, mostly 20 somethings, in stores, restaurants, barber shop, about how 'cool' it is

i don't engage

 

[PussyGalore]

I know that there are shills out there that like this series, who are probably the actors themselves, the writers, the staff behind the project who are only defending it to keep their jobs, but there are a few that like it too, however, you are right to say that a lot of the general public were put off from discovery. I asked a guy who I reguarily visit who is a star wars fan to checkout the new star trek, and he did not like it. He even said himself that this is just a bit too dark


I think they pushed season 2 to 2019 waiting to get more people onto CBS all access. They are taking a big gamble by thinking that people are going to watch this crap. We are already 5 episodes in, and with half the season almost over, you still don't know what on earth this series is about let alone the dry spell. However, I think they are going to be selling the licence for star trek i.e. they'll be showing season 1 on cbs in 2018 and then airing season 2 on cbs and cbs all access or they'll air the second half of season 2 first on cbs all access and then air it on cbs free to air a week or 2 later. That would have been a smarter move. Those that want to access it early, can pay a premium for it but those that want to wait and watch it for free with ads, have to wait 1 to 2 weeks or however many to get to enjoy it.

Oh yeah and now they've removed all previews of next episodes. I believe there is a hiatus on both Orville and STD.

You're right it's a big gamble, a big big gamble. It's highly doubtful that Netflix (via CBS) will make back its money on the first season of Discovery by the time the second season airs. Then there's the cost of producing season 2 itself. The hole just gets deeper and deeper.

 

[PussyGalore]

There is always going to be an audience for anything made. There are people out there who still want SGU to be revived. And like somebody said earlier, if this show weren't supposed to be Star Trek, it would be a decent scifi action series. It is not something I want to watch, but I can see an audience for it. But CBS All Access needs it to draw subscribers to the service, and I think that whomever planned this out had expectations that were not met. It will weigh heavily on what happens in the second part of the season release. SGU had two seasons from the outset, but the performance of the first season is what killed it after the fact. It was canceled early in the second season. I am pretty sure this is falling short of what CBS wanted, so we have to watch and see what happens.

You're right, there will always be a percentage of people who like any show that is failing and/or already failed. But it all comes down to money, or the lack thereof in relation to these shows. Shills and fanbois spamming Reddit and Facebook won't change reality when it comes to the numbers. And as JL's math pointed out the numbers aren't in Discovery's favor.

 

[Jim of WVa]

The only thing worse than new Bollywood films, is reruns of bad Hollywood films and series.

I suppose that if a subscription service were to conclude that they only had male viewers, they could decide to feature only sci-fi shows and porn.

 

[heisenberg]

There is always going to be an audience for anything made. There are people out there who still want SGU to be revived. And like somebody said earlier, if this show weren't supposed to be Star Trek, it would be a decent scifi action series. It is not something I want to watch, but I can see an audience for it. But CBS All Access needs it to draw subscribers to the service, and I think that whomever planned this out had expectations that were not met. It will weigh heavily on what happens in the second part of the season release. SGU had two seasons from the outset, but the performance of the first season is what killed it after the fact. It was canceled early in the second season. I am pretty sure this is falling short of what CBS wanted, so we have to watch and see what happens.

I think The Orville is seeing growth from the ratings. Perhaps we should post them here?

So apparently now they are claiming that it's going to be in line with canon but be its own timeline...aaaaaaaaahahaha...but articles like this, keep pushing the idea that CBS all access has been a 'success' when I don't see that happening.

“We are the original timeline with the TV shows and movies that fit into that,” Goldsman said during a press conference at New York Comic Con. “We are wildly aware of everything that appears to be a deviation from canon and we will close out all of those issues before they arrive at the 10-year period and hit The Original Series.”

Rather than focus on the continuity and timeline that Discovery operates within, Goldsman said the heart of the series is the characters that exist within it. As one of the only Star Trek shows to be considered a “wholly serialized narrative,” instead of a serialized series with episodic fillers, Discovery’s producers can focus on telling stories in-depth in ways that former series couldn’t.

“We get to focus on character story over plot,” Goldsman said. “If Kirk had to deal with Edith [Keeler]’s death as if it were real, it would take a season or a series. It wouldn’t take a week. The gift we have with contemporary story is that we can stretch those feelings out over a season. It is how these people discover who they are and as a representation of the Federation reaffirming who it is. You get the gift of getting to start somewhere which is different from where you end.”

What character? These people make zero sense.

https://www.polygon.com/tv/2017/10/18/16500810/star-trek-discovery-continuity-original-series

Anyway, the Orville numbers are slightly dropping each week and with the hiatus, that does not help its cause either.

 

[PussyGalore]

So apparently now they are claiming that it's going to be in line with canon but be its own timeline...aaaaaaaaahahaha...but articles like this, keep pushing the idea that CBS all access has been a 'success' when I don't see that happening.



What character? These people make zero sense.

https://www.polygon.com/tv/2017/10/18/16500810/star-trek-discovery-continuity-original-series

Anyway, the Orville numbers are slightly dropping each week and with the hiatus, that does not help its cause either.

OMG, is this Goldsman fellow smoking crack? He's talking gibberish. And I don't like being soft-lectured about how serialized shows are much better than episodic ones. That's nonsense. This guy is a loon.

I find it hilarious that the article ends with the shill author opining that "if the show continues to find success" it could go on for another five years or more. Immediately following that closing statement is the comments section which is filled with people ripping the show apart.

*It's interesting to note that someone in the comment section, just like us, also refers to TO as Star Trek: The Orville.

 

[Overmind One]

The anti-Orville spin money must be running out:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottm...show-fans-have-been-waiting-for/#64001aaa6da8

Truth be told, since I’ve only seen two episodes of Discovery and those two episodes were a glorified prologue and offered few major characters who will reappear regularly, I have no idea what kind of Star Trek show it will be. But, four episodes in, I can already argue that The Orville is exactly the kind of Star Trek show that fans have been clamoring for.

By not having a budget (or requirements) for wall-to-wall spectacle, the hour-long Fox show is forced to focus on character, chemistry, sci-fi plotting and moral debates that have partially defined Gene Roddenberry’s property for generations. Yes, to a certain extent it’s fan fiction, but then so is so much of our current pop culture entertainment. But by being a network television show, it is forced to be the kind of Star Trek that fans claim the recent movies have neglected in favor of four-quadrant blockbuster thrills. The Orville is not a spoof, but rather a straight-faced Trek show with characters who are funny and can laugh at funny events.

https://www.reddit.com/r/scifi/comments/72o11x/the_orville_is_10x_better_than_star_trek_discovery/

 

[Overmind One]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/0/star-trek-discovery-not-going-boldly-enough-set-course-orville/

This new series is not Star Trek: Discovery. The overblown latest official addition to the canon– freshly arrived on Netflix – is the embodiment of everything fans have come to loathe about "JJ Trek". It’s noisy, self-consciously bleak and hobbled by video game-level special effects. Some critics have praised Discovery’s dystopian grit – but those with a deeper appreciation of sci-fi may see it as a fundamental portrayal of Trek’s core values.

So it is perhaps no surprise that many in the Trek "community" have set course for The Orville, an unlikely sci-fi triumph from Family Guy creator Seth MacFarlane, which debuted in the US last month and is due to shortly air on Fox UK (a precise date yet to be announced). It is everything Discovery is not: cheerful, pleasant to behold and with an emphasis on cerebral storytelling.

 

[Overmind One]

The Proof is in the numbers:

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/dvr-ratings/week-2-broadcast-live-7-ratings-oct-2-8-2017/

“The Orville” is putting up pretty good delayed-viewing numbers over the course of its first season on FOX.

The show’s Oct. 5 episode more than doubled its adults 18-49 rating with a week of DVR and on-demand viewing, rising from 0.9 to 2.1. That’s a growth of 133 percent, tying for the top percentage gain of the week with “Designated Survivor.”

 

[Jim of WVa]

OMG, is this Goldsman fellow smoking crack? He's talking gibberish. And I don't like being soft-lectured about how serialized shows are much better than episodic ones. That's nonsense. This guy is a loon.

I find it hilarious that the article ends with the shill author opining that "if the show continues to find success" it could go on for another five years or more. Immediately following that closing statement is the comments section which is filled with people ripping the show apart.

*It's interesting to note that someone in the comment section, just like us, also refers to TO as Star Trek: The Orville.

The two previous seasons of South Park have shown that serialized storytelling is inferior when it comes to humor. Serialized stories need to be more serious and work with serious shows like Babylon 5.

 

[YJ02]

I'm still trying to figure out what CBS All Access offers that's worth anything. Other than their failed attempt at an original show the rest is either football, that you can already see on local channels, or reruns of regular CBS shows, many of which are already airing on free local channels too. So where is the value there? I keep thinking I'm missing something but for the life of me I can't figure it out.

yeah and a lot of new CBS shows are still streaming on HULU and other sites

guess they didnt want to burn all of their bridges

 

[YJ02]

so from clips i have watched here and there and the comments you are making here, and the quote of someone calling it 'dystopian' and that it is 'canon ,but in its own timeline'

any chance they are trying to spin this as a show set in the 'mirror darkly' trek verse?

it still wouldn't match though- but that isn't stopping them with anything else, is it?

 

[Overmind One]

yeah and a lot of new CBS shows are still streaming on HULU and other sites

guess they didnt want to burn all of their bridges

And those shows are mediocre. CBS All Access is full of more of that shit. QUICK! Give us a must-see non Trek show made by CBS!

Take your time....

 

[Overmind One]

See, its this sort of telling data that is revealing the truth of these two shows:

Taken one minute ago:

Also taken one minute ago:

The critics are not even close on either show. One has to wonder (beyond the obviou$), why the critics are SO FAR off the mark? Why should I trust them at all for any reason? They do not get the audiences. They do not see the material like normal people do. And why does ANYONE need somebody else who is paid money to give an opinion to tell them what to watch? Rotten tomatoes would be better off dumping all their critics and just allowing the audiences to give their ratings. Pick out a few members who seem to always be right about their critiques, and give them a special place on the boards.

 

[Joelist]

Pity we cannot see trendlines on the RT? fan reviews. I suspect those on STD keep going down and those on The Orville keep going up.

 

[Overmind One]

Pity we cannot see trendlines on the RT? fan reviews. I suspect those on STD keep going down and those on The Orville keep going up.

Agreed. And you can bet that CBS is certainly not banking on a handful of paid critics to make their decisions about how to proceed with this property. Like SGU, it would still be a little watched sideline on any streaming service like Hulu or Amazon. It would be there, but who would click it? I mentioned earlier that I tried to rewatch SGU and couldnt get past episode 3. This is the same. Only Discovery does not give us any opportunity to do a Crystal Ball. .

Over at RT, many are questioning the validity of the critics reviews, as they seem to have flubbed quite a few of the current and recent movies and TV shows. This particular one stands out though.