Some random thoughts on 'darkier & edgier'

[trelaine]

Been re-watching SGA and am in S2. It occurs to me that SGA has darker & edgier themes about 'the evil that men do' as well as a darker alien enemy.

SGA only lasted 5 years. Maybe that was a clue to what happens to scif series with 'darker & edgier' themes.

Granted, a missing component was gratuitous sex. I'm thinking this will have the opposite effect than what they had hoped for: 2 or 3 seasons of SGU vs. 5 of SGA.

If they wanted new audiences, why did they want to go so much for what they think younger people want? A HUGE demographic is the baby-boomers who are probably looking for content with more thoughtful & provocative themes rather than grimy erotica.

It also occurs to me that SGA managed to have 'darker & edgier' themes within full lighting! Something TPTB apparently forgot - they don't have to turn out the lights to tell us it's darker, we can GET that on our own.

And FINALLY, I can't help but wonder what the Nox would think of this new crew on SGU?

 

[Aragon101]

Been re-watching SGA and am in S2. It occurs to me that SGA has darker & edgier themes about 'the evil that men do' as well as a darker alien enemy.

SGA only lasted 5 years. Maybe that was a clue to what happens to scif series with 'darker & edgier' themes.

Granted, a missing component was gratuitous sex. I'm thinking this will have the opposite effect than what they had hoped for: 2 or 3 seasons of SGU vs. 5 of SGA.

If they wanted new audiences, why did they want to go so much for what they think younger people want? A HUGE demographic is the baby-boomers who are probably looking for content with more thoughtful & provocative themes rather than grimy erotica.

It also occurs to me that SGA managed to have 'darker & edgier' themes within full lighting! Something TPTB apparently forgot - they don't have to turn out the lights to tell us it's darker, we can GET that on our own.

And FINALLY, I can't help but wonder what the Nox would think of this new crew on SGU?

This is the biggest fail on the part of TPTB. SGA HAD Dark themes, it had established characters and it had an established DARK story (The Wraith and dealing with them).

They weren't willing to move beyond the 'cartoonish' in SGA, so they canned it and went to SGU to fire on all cylinders the "dark and gloomy"

The problem is, you need BALANCE which is something SGA definitely had in its first 2 seasons. You also need a planned story arc which SGA really didn't have as they came up with it onthe fly and you can TOTALLY tell. I think only Season 4 had an overall planned storyarc with Michael.

TPTB are masters of kicking themselves in the ass with the foot they shot themselves in.

 

[JohnSN7]

Atlantis' Moral Quandries

I think Atlantis has touched on some very big moral questions, or at least it had the opportunity to but blew it at certain points. Did anyone else think that there were moral issues with Beckett's retrovirus? Which the Atlantis crew were discussing using as a biological weapon to defeat the Wraith (albeit not kill them but it's still problematic)? Also, the Atlantis team is completely responsible for the creation of Michael. And then there's the way Michael is killed. Atlantis had its dark and/or thoughtful moments, but TPTB downplay that in favor of the constantly melancholy SGU.

 

[Aragon101]

I think Atlantis has touched on some very big moral questions, or at least it had the opportunity to but blew it at certain points. Did anyone else think that there were moral issues with Beckett's retrovirus? Which the Atlantis crew were discussing using as a biological weapon to defeat the Wraith (albeit not kill them but it's still problematic)? Also, the Atlantis team is completely responsible for the creation of Michael. And then there's the way Michael is killed. Atlantis had its dark and/or thoughtful moments, but TPTB downplay that in favor of the constantly melancholy SGU.

There are many variables to take place here, but the basic idea is this

When you think of BSG. Your thoughts automatically go to "Gasp! RDM!"

When you think of SG-1/A, your thoughts go to "Jack/Sam/Daniel/Teal'c/Sheppard/Mckay etc etc..."

THe SG PTB want teh same critical acclaim RDM gets, but are nowhere near as experienced. We KNOW RDM can do awesome plots and characters, it's a part of his style. The SG PTB can only do awesome lighthearted characters and when tehy get into dark, they get scared.

SGU is a knee jerk reaction to that. It's a frank FUCK YOU you all teh fans who've been with them throuh the Replicators (twice) the Nerfing of the Jaffa/Wraith, never getting confirmation on Sam/Jack, and the Pasgard as well as a neverending story.

I talk about this in my article for the newspaper which hopefully will come out soon

 

[Yllek]

I always thought that SGA was incredibly dark. Beckett's retrovirus that killed hundreds of thousands, the Wraith that Sheppard awoke, the Replicator code that McKay messed with, which in turn led to the Replicators destroying whole planets. The creation of Michael. The destruction of a whole (well ok, 5/6th of a) solar system. The Lanteans were responsible for the deaths of millions of people and the show ends with Atlantis - the only hope of the Pegasus galaxy - floating in SF bay.

What 'darkness' have we seen in SGU? Your basic human sins, sloth, envy, adultry, lust, gluttony, pride, greed and wrath. Not exactly mindblowing grittiness.

 

[iratecaller]

Before explain my little story , I've got a comment.

I don't even think I know what "darker" means now. Aside from being some kind of buzz word to attract viewers like flies on shit, I honestly don't know what "darker" means. If "darker" means to touch on taboo subjects, or to delve into the "evil that men do" and what not .. then doesn't ALL sci-fi do this to some degree? Isn't SG-PU just a dumber, cruder, soapy version of this?

Anyways .. here's my story:

So a co-worker and I where talking about SGU.

We went on for a while; it turns out he "kinda likes it".
His words, not mine.
He also really enjoys the other Stargate shows too. So he's certainly part of the target demographic as far as Wright & Co are concerned.

But the funny part is when he says: "It's much darker than the other Stargates."
So I asked: "You mean, darker themes?"
He says: "Nah, the scenes are just darker, much harder to see."

I burst out laughing.

Jebus, that Wright and Mallozi are douches for messing up Stargate.
Yeah it's "dark" alright. Idiots.

 

[stclare]

I always thought that SGA was incredibly dark. Beckett's retrovirus that killed hundreds of thousands, the Wraith that Sheppard awoke, the Replicator code that McKay messed with, which in turn led to the Replicators destroying whole planets. The creation of Michael. The destruction of a whole (well ok, 5/6th of a) solar system. The Lanteans were responsible for the deaths of millions of people and the show ends with Atlantis - the only hope of the Pegasus galaxy - floating in SF bay.

What 'darkness' have we seen in SGU? Your basic human sins, sloth, envy, adultry, lust, gluttony, pride, greed and wrath. Not exactly mindblowing grittiness.

yep there idea's of darkness are not mine.

Darkness for me comes from seeing characters I know and care for being put in impossible situations. where there is no right anwser and you have to make the best decision you can. Seeing characters you dislike make decisions you also dislike is as boring as hell. I want to be taken on a journey when i watch television esp scifi, i want to feel good,sad,excited and most of all an empathy with the people im watching.

 

[Aragon101]

yep there idea's of darkness are not mine.

Darkness for me comes from seeing characters I know and care for being put in impossible situations. where there is no right anwser and you have to make the best decision you can. Seeing characters you dislike make decisions you also dislike is as boring as hell. I want to be taken on a journey when i watch television esp scifi, i want to feel good,sad,excited and most of all an empathy with the people im watching.

THIS ^

One of the darkest moments of SGA wasn't even played right. When Sheppard convinces Wallace to let Todd feed on him to save Jeannie.

That's FUCKED UP. I remember watching and going "holy fuck!" and really REALLY wanted to see Sheppard deal with the fact that he'd convinced a man to die. That's unbelievably dark IMO and could have been played to awesomeness.

Alas, it was cast aside... Wright and Mallozzi must be convinced everything they do is dark because they've got their heads so far up each other's asses that sunlight is a foreign concept to them.

 

[Yllek]

THIS ^

One of the darkest moments of SGA wasn't even played right. When Sheppard convinces Wallace to let Todd feed on him to save Jeannie.

That's FUCKED UP. I remember watching and going "holy fuck!" and really REALLY wanted to see Sheppard deal with the fact that he'd convinced a man to die. That's unbelievably dark IMO and could have been played to awesomeness.

I must admit that I'm completely conditioned by SGA fanfic. A lot of my SGA canon is actually fanon. But strictly speaking, they did deal with it, when McKay comes to Sheppard's room and confronts him, and he refuses to talk about it. That was Sheppard dealing with it - he didn't talk about it, he did it, it was done and over with, something else to have nightmares about, etc. And then in Outcast it's all brought back up again, and this time he doesn't kill Ava (even though she's "just" a Replicator), he puts her in a virtual environment.

Thought it was a pretty awesome moment btw, when Sheppard talked Wallace into feeding himself to the Wraith. Great acting on Flanigan's part.

 

[stclare]

THIS ^

One of the darkest moments of SGA wasn't even played right. When Sheppard convinces Wallace to let Todd feed on him to save Jeannie.

That's FUCKED UP. I remember watching and going "holy fuck!" and really REALLY wanted to see Sheppard deal with the fact that he'd convinced a man to die. That's unbelievably dark IMO and could have been played to awesomeness.

Alas, it was cast aside... Wright and Mallozzi must be convinced everything they do is dark because they've got their heads so far up each other's asses that sunlight is a foreign concept to them.

Exactly. the thing is they had good enough actors to go tp these darker places and the friendship to give it emotional impact. Yet they didnt they were saving themselves for what they considered a better show with better actors. how wrong they were!

 

[Aragon101]

I must admit that I'm completely conditioned by SGA fanfic. A lot of my SGA canon is actually fanon. But strictly speaking, they did deal with it, when McKay comes to Sheppard's room and confronts him, and he refuses to talk about it. That was Sheppard dealing with it - he didn't talk about it, he did it, it was done and over with, something else to have nightmares about, etc. And then in Outcast it's all brought back up again, and this time he doesn't kill Ava (even though she's "just" a Replicator), he puts her in a virtual environment.

Thought it was a pretty awesome moment btw, when Sheppard talked Wallace into feeding himself to the Wraith. Great acting on Flanigan's part.

Not talking about it is a Writer's Cop Out. It only works if it has an effect on something later. This counts for any dramatic sense, either dark drama or romance. SG-1 and SGA are riddled with "Not talking about it "moments that never get brought up again, or get brought up at inappropriate times and levels of focus.

These writers are good at what made SG-1 popular, fun characters and decent plots. But once they get into heavy stuff, 9 times out of 10 they take the easy route out and never reflect on how the events change the characters or those around them.

Perfect example. Hathor's rape of Daniel. Never brought up again. Jack killing the guy from teh facist planet with the Iris, never brought up again. Sam killing Martouf, never really touched on beyond the one scene with what's his face? Elliot and Lantash.

It's oh so easy to pick apart SG-1 and SGA, but that's not the issue.the issue is that SG-1 and SGA were FUN. The characters were likable and very much what carried the show. SGU has neither a good plot pacing nor good characters.

It's unfair to berate SGU without pointing out the same flaws in SG1 and SGA. That doesn't take away the awesomeness that SG1 and SGA had, which SGU is sorely lacking.

 

[Omnipotent]

No series or movie is perfect. What counts in the end is that the flaws don't make the series or movie unwatchable. It must still be entertaining and SG1 and SGA were fun to watch!

hear hear!

 

[Mr. A]

Been re-watching SGA and am in S2. It occurs to me that SGA has darker & edgier themes about 'the evil that men do' as well as a darker alien enemy.

SGA only lasted 5 years. Maybe that was a clue to what happens to scif series with 'darker & edgier' themes.

...

No series or movie is perfect. What counts in the end is that the flaws don't make the series or movie unwatchable. It must still be entertaining and SG1 and SGA were fun to watch!

Trelain, regardless of the "edginess" and "darkness" of SGA vs SGU - you are working from the assumption that SGA failed somehow and analyzing it from there. I don't accept that premise. It didn't fail - SGA was taken down after 5 seasons for no good reason...

 

[Aragon101]

Trelain, regardless of the "edginess" and "darkness" of SGA vs SGU - you are working from the assumption that SGA failed somehow and analyzing it from there. I don't accept that premise. It didn't fail - SGA was taken down after 5 seasons for no good reason...

The problem isn't "Darker or edgier"

The problem is bad writing.

Bad writing will nullify anything except great actors/characters

But yes, SGA was cencelled for no good reason and TPTB are getting the sweet thick fat cock of truth shoved deep into their colon where they'd pulled SGU out of.

And no Rac, not secretly gay, just have a fixation on the hilarity that is anal sex.

 

[Robbie_Rocket_Pants]

Dark, edgy, gritty poo.

Sometimes when I have too many pints of Guinness & packets of dry roasted peanuts at the pub, my poo the next day has a tendency to be dark, gritty & edgy! However, the difference between looking at the TV when SGPOO is on & looking in the toilet after i've dropped the kids off at the pool is that one makes me feel immense pride, the other immense shame............... can you guess which is which?

 

[Mr. A]

Robbie's dark & gritty material

Sometimes when I have too many pints of Guinness & packets of dry roasted peanuts at the pub, my poo the next day has a tendency to be dark, gritty & edgy! However, the difference between looking at the TV when SGPOO is on & looking in the toilet after i've dropped the kids off at the pool is that one makes me feel immense pride, the other immense shame............... can you guess which is which?

I give up - I can't tell the difference

 

[Darth Atlantis]

The thing of it is how can the Wraith, who culled mutiply human worlds throughout SGA's run be considered less dark than SGU? the Wraith make Universe look like Disneyland in comparison! what does universe have to compete with that? blue alien probes and the Lucian alliance!

 

[Aragon101]

The thing of it is how can the Wraith, who culled mutiply human worlds throughout SGA's run be considered less dark than SGU? the Wraith make Universe look like Disneyland in comparison! what does universe have to compete with that? blue alien probes and the Lucian alliance!

Evidently TPTB are more scared of relationships and squid than they are the idea of being fed on and genocide.

That makes sense actually

 

[Rac80]

The problem isn't "Darker or edgier"

The problem is bad writing.

Bad writing will nullify anything except great actors/characters

But yes, SGA was cencelled for no good reason and TPTB are getting the sweet thick fat cock of truth shoved deep into their colon where they'd pulled SGU out of.

And no Rac, not secretly gay, just have a fixation on the hilarity that is anal sex.

heehee...well I always have wondered if something went terribly wrong with your toilet training!
Bad acting is also a SERIOUS problem with sgpoo.

Sometimes when I have too many pints of Guinness & packets of dry roasted peanuts at the pub, my poo the next day has a tendency to be dark, gritty & edgy! However, the difference between looking at the TV when SGPOO is on & looking in the toilet after i've dropped the kids off at the pool is that one makes me feel immense pride, the other immense shame............... can you guess which is which?

TMI!!!!

The thing of it is how can the Wraith, who culled mutiply human worlds throughout SGA's run be considered less dark than SGU? the Wraith make Universe look like Disneyland in comparison! what does universe have to compete with that? blue alien probes and the Lucian alliance!

EXACTLY...when I saw the pilot of SGA my first thought was "these wraith make the gou'ald look positively harmless"

 

[deco]

EXACTLY...when I saw the pilot of SGA my first thought was "these wraith make the gou'ald look positively harmless"

that in the begining whem they were hard to kill, and in the midel of season 3 they start give like 1 shot to them