YJ02
Well Known GateFan
i leave it at that and hope someone has an opinion that is more then a sentence long
"Anybody,anybody,anybody...Buehler, Buehler, Buehler?"
come on now! someone must think something!
Lost Civilizations and human pre- history
- Thread starter YJ02
- Start date
"Anybody,anybody,anybody...Buehler, Buehler, Buehler?"
come on now! someone must think something!
This particular subject is part of my ongoing studies on human history on earth. I have avoided the topic because in order to really get into the particulars, I would have to also give my thoughts and findings on revisionist European history with regard to the ancient civilizations of Kemet and Nubia and Kush as well as the South American civilizations. Both discussions necessarily exclude all western European influence (because those people did not exist back then).
Everything points to the fact that all of the ancient monolithic cultures developed DURING the last ice age. We have 26,000 years of ice-free Africa, South and Central America, and all the lands of the equatorial and temperate zones which were ice free during the last ice age. All scientific indications are that these civilizations are at least 10,000 years older than currently acknowledged. The main reason that studies of these civilizations remains stunted is because there is an agenda by western Eurocentrics to claim them or claim some sort of influence in these ancient cultures when in reality they did not even exist yet.
Discussing these civilizations invites racist commentary IMO. But if you want to HONESTLY look at the data, and do not have a racist agenda, I will participate.
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
yeah,,not me, i don't neverhave....
as far as i am concerned, "race" actually ethnicity, has "f"f all to do with it!
i admit, that is an angle used by modern day ppl of hatred to truy and advance their agendas
my views are based solely on what has been dug up or other wise found..very old things from before the last ice melt
and if YOU MUST mention ethnicity, then yeah, these very old civilizations were from the non frozen areas. there were no real 'ppl of color' then as most ppl were basically of the same hue (can be supported by genetics which suggests melanin content, hair type, body build eve neye color) the 'olive med complexion and darker'
"whitey' didn't come around for quite awhile later
even those ppls of the atlantic littoral i speak of,,indeed even up into the british isles were probably of a darker complexion. even today, ppl of "welsh.cornish, manx" descent whose gentic line has little "european" dna in it our still fairly dark complected ( think of some famous welsh stars for example)
there is a pretty plain trail of dna markers that travel by age,the oldest being in north africa--from north africa, into iberia, along the french coast and into the british isles-- the "dark tribes" that the celts of britain told the romans were there before them. there is also a large portion of sunken land that used to connect the british isles to the mainland down to iberia--if this could ever be dug up, i bet that much would be found tghere also. perhaps even the "seed" for the stories of the ancient civ of atlantis
so yeah--i am not there and won't go there with some "race bullshit". that is non productive frankly, quite boring
europe and europeans would not exist if not for the ancient /ice age ppls of the mid east, central america and even longer before-africa.
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as i said before, i find the issue of the oral to written thread of stories from these ancient ppls quite interesting as well. so old that they even explain the intermingling of neanderthal and modern humans during the last ice age/melt?
the aboriginals of australia have what-like a 10,000 yrs old thread of oral history unbroken from then to today.so why wouldn't ancient ppls have had this and then put it into writing?
there is no reason they would not have.
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
added to this is MY mitochondrial DNA?(maternal) that shows that this haplogroup and some others, originated in ne africa. northern arabia over 12,000 yrs ago.
its 'trace' can be followed through the non arab (berbers, some Tauregs, other non arab north africans, iberians, an increasingly smaller number of ppl in france and then into wales and ireland, isle of man (the manx)--ALL possess these maternal, mithocondrial dna in their populations (along with other mithoc dna strands of course--they didn't all have 1 mother!)
interestingly, this maternal haplogroup i have also has a sub set that goes up into central asia and can be found in some minority populations of a-stan and pakistan.
and this is quite curious, when every part of my mother's family-known for about 2-300 yrs, that all came here originally from france or germany by ethnicity claimed ALTHOUGH it is not a originally european haplogroup (those all seem to have orignated in central asia /eastern europe/ caucasus region)
and to this discussion, they seem to have nothing to do with any of these ancient lost civ's except for maybe those sunken under the blacks sea's waters
i have found out it is my father's side (who i know nothing else of him) that is primarily "european" by dna
why this dip into DNA?
just to show, as you know, that ethnicity ("race" if you must) is really meaningless and has no bearing on these 'lost civilizations'...when you consider the 'journey' of just my mithocondrial dna, it could very well have been ppl from the arabian peninsula-generations later of course- who made stonehenge--the celts said they didn't build it, they just used it.
Gate_Boarder
Well Known GateFan
As I have said many times before if the water level was 300 feet lower than what it is now I suspect the cradle of civilization has been washed away.
For those of us who live on a major river, just imagine what your world would look like if that river was now 300, if not 50 feet higher?
For those of us who live on a major river, just imagine what your world would look like if that river was now 300, if not 50 feet higher?
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
yup! and we build muchthe same way they did really; stone/concrete lasts, wood and metal will rot under water over enough time. ppl looking back at us may think we were 'unadvanced' based on what is left. they might even think we were illiterate since everything is going digital!
how do archae'st's determine if a ppl from long ago was literate now? solely based on the written word in clay or stone, papyrus, etc. if there is some 'gap' between us and our future 'finders' and we go totally paperless, bookless and there is no continuity of tech to recover our digital stuff, then we will go down to to future history as illiterate.
anyhow--black sea site. at least 7500 yrs old, may have been inhabited for much longer. discount 'noah's flood' as we know that that acct is based entirely on Gilgamesh and older stories of local disasters
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...ndicate-that-noahs-flood-was-real-697782.html
and the persian gulf 'cities' lost to water att he same time (most likely):
"Jeffrey Rose, an archaeologist and researcher with the University of Birmingham in the U.K., says that the area in and around this "Persian Gulf Oasis" may have been host to humans for over 100,000 years before it was swallowed up by the Indian Ocean around 8,000 years ago. Rose's hypothesis introduces a "new and substantial cast of characters" to the human history of the Near East, and suggests that humans may have established permanent settlements in the region thousands of years before current migration models suppose."
from: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101208151609.htm
This is EXACTLY what they are finding. But there is also another curious but logical find. When northern and western Europe and most of northeast Asia were glaciated, the Sahara and Gobi deserts were grasslands and savannah. The Nile river passed within 300 meters from the pyramids, according to satellite data, and the Mississippi spilled out into a delta ending in the Texas Gulf. There was a ginormous inland lake which is desert today in the western states.
Seems that humans and their settlements revolve around a supply of freshwater. Rivers and freshwater lakes can grow a civilization, and when they dry up...the civilization moves on or dries up with it.
Imagine, for a moment, how the people of those times of the Old Earth must have perceived the relatively sudden melting of the ice, the rising of the seas and the displacement of water and dry land? Their "Global Warming".
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
3 things that drove ancient/ neolithic man
food
water
and access to breeding females
a good water source and its control/security can get you the other two
a stabilized settlement with all three grew into a city then a civilisation
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another note for thought on what is 'history (the study of what has been written)'
we knw that one of the earliest forms of accepted written records are those in cuneiform in the Sumerian areas and surrounding societies. this was written in wet clay, if it was to be made permanent they were baked
one reason we are told there is nothing older then Egyptian, Sumerian or Indus valley societies is that there is no written record..well since we also know that these sunken sites were ,well, sunken---what does a unbaked clay tablet turn into when it gets wet? duh
so to make claims to the world that these old sunken places were illiterate is simply asinine and mainly rest on no one making the common sense connections of wet clay turn to mud.
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the advancing study and research of human genomes and the mapping of them will continue to destroy any remaining belief by eurocentrists that the 'only' ancient civs were those very close in contact with the europe.
the populating of europe is recent and only older then the populating of the Americas (perhaps) in comparison to other regions from africa through asia
of course, the unfrozen areas of the last ice age
and along with ppl not making the wet clay tablet to mud issue? as OM said, northern africa was once a green land with a lot of water (much of that water is still under the sahara. Khaddafi of Libya tried to build a project to tap it, never finished). But today we only see it as a dry desert and to try to comprehend that many peoples was lived there is just unreachable mentally for many ppl
and where did those ppl go when the ice melted and climate changed and the place went dry? well probably east to egypt/asia and north into the iberia peninsula--the mechanism for how my (among hundreds of others) mitochondrial haplogroup got to europe as mapped by the human genome project--and also how its subset found its way as far as south central asia
food
water
and access to breeding females
a good water source and its control/security can get you the other two
a stabilized settlement with all three grew into a city then a civilisation
-----
another note for thought on what is 'history (the study of what has been written)'
we knw that one of the earliest forms of accepted written records are those in cuneiform in the Sumerian areas and surrounding societies. this was written in wet clay, if it was to be made permanent they were baked
one reason we are told there is nothing older then Egyptian, Sumerian or Indus valley societies is that there is no written record..well since we also know that these sunken sites were ,well, sunken---what does a unbaked clay tablet turn into when it gets wet? duh
so to make claims to the world that these old sunken places were illiterate is simply asinine and mainly rest on no one making the common sense connections of wet clay turn to mud.
-----------------
the advancing study and research of human genomes and the mapping of them will continue to destroy any remaining belief by eurocentrists that the 'only' ancient civs were those very close in contact with the europe.
the populating of europe is recent and only older then the populating of the Americas (perhaps) in comparison to other regions from africa through asia
of course, the unfrozen areas of the last ice age
and along with ppl not making the wet clay tablet to mud issue? as OM said, northern africa was once a green land with a lot of water (much of that water is still under the sahara. Khaddafi of Libya tried to build a project to tap it, never finished). But today we only see it as a dry desert and to try to comprehend that many peoples was lived there is just unreachable mentally for many ppl
and where did those ppl go when the ice melted and climate changed and the place went dry? well probably east to egypt/asia and north into the iberia peninsula--the mechanism for how my (among hundreds of others) mitochondrial haplogroup got to europe as mapped by the human genome project--and also how its subset found its way as far as south central asia
Gate_Boarder
Well Known GateFan
I posted the above some 6 weeks back.
Some people don't have to use their imagination on this one but ...
What would happen if you lived on a river system that rose 7.5 feet over night?
How would your life change?
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
our life, as current, would be nearly entirely changed
all of the digital tech would be destroyed and perhaps, unrecoverable-unless 'cloud back up', right?
the place we live except maybe the concrete foundation, would be gone,washed away or buried
in short, we would be set back at least 100yrs or more in all things; no automobile, no electric, no gas, no tech,etc
for the old civilizations of those ice age coastlines, having a whole seas come up over you area would wipe out all, completely. only legends would remain among possible survivors or maybe those from the interior who knew someone who once visited the place
Lord Ba'al
Well Known GateFan
I think he didn't quite mean all of civilization would be flooded but only the part near the river. This is actually an annual phenomenon for people living in certain areas, even in certain parts of the Netherlands. (not uncommon in other European countries either) These days those areas are much less inhabited and flood planes along the river are specifically arranged. But there are farms in those areas. Sometimes livestock has to be rescued. Sometimes parts of villages or whole villages do flood. I'm thankful never to have experienced that myself.
If I would experience it, I guess that would mean I wouldn't have to bother to try going to work. It would also mean no electricity and by extension no heat or electronic forms of entertainment. It would also be a hassle to find food anywhere around, if not impossible. Very unpleasant all around.
If I would experience it, I guess that would mean I wouldn't have to bother to try going to work. It would also mean no electricity and by extension no heat or electronic forms of entertainment. It would also be a hassle to find food anywhere around, if not impossible. Very unpleasant all around.
Gate_Boarder
Well Known GateFan
Houston, Texas is under threat of flooding, or has been partly washed away.
For the last five days the news is all about Texas, day-in and night-out on all channels.
Six million people are headed for higher ground. That 60 inch LED TV I bought some time ago ain't gonna fit on my back if it happened to me.
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
right
now we have the equipment, knowledge and online back ups to eventually bring everything back to aplace like Houston.
but 8, 10, 12,000 yrs ago? nope.
that is,imo, the major reason so much of those civ's are now "lost"
I imagine it would be destroyed. Most people who live on a river system build right on the river to take advantage of the access to the river and to have views of it from their homes. Depending on the topography and land development, one could be destroyed or displaced. In either case, the river would become the enemy.
Jim of WVa
Well Known GateFan
I assume you mean rose 7.5 ft and stayed that high. Not realistic for a global warming scenario, but a useful exercise nonetheless.
Agriculture would have to scramble to find good land that was more than 7.5 ft above the old water surface elevation of the river.
Jim of WVa
Well Known GateFan
That is what a van or truck is for.
https://www.reddit.com/r/theydidthemath/comments/2czi9q/some_math_for_franks_2000_inch_tv/
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PussyGalore
Meow
Not to sound crass about the Houston thing but a single flood will do nothing to eradicate our modern culture. (Having lived through a flood I know it sucks horribly.) But other than lives lost, people pretty much rebuild their lives materially and return to the state they were in prior to the flood.
As a civilization we now have the ability to engineer flood control in many areas. We are finally figuring out that flood plains need to be extended because "Once every 100 years floods" happen a hell of a lot more than once every 100 years. (We're not extending flood plain building restrictions far enough though. It only seems to happen now due to insurance companies refusing to offer coverage in areas they deem too risky but other than that we happily build in areas we shouldn't.)
At any rate, we're not meteorological idiots anymore. We know for a fact that hurricanes and tropical storms routinely follow certain paths and hit certain areas over and over and over (Gulf coast, Florida, etc.). We can't act surprised when we build large metropolitan centers in areas known to be in the path of devastating storms. We can no longer claim ignorance because "7 inches of rain can't happen" when the reality is that it can happen, and does happen. The lack of retention and detention basins and proper drainage channels in large cities in these areas is an oversight on the part of public officials. Granted, these things won't completely prevent flooding but they definitely reduce the impact of such disasters. This is indisputable. This isn't ancient Egypt; modern engineering is capable of handling such things as floods. Again, it's not a perfect cure but things can definitely be better in terms of disaster prevention and management in 2017.
As a civilization we now have the ability to engineer flood control in many areas. We are finally figuring out that flood plains need to be extended because "Once every 100 years floods" happen a hell of a lot more than once every 100 years. (We're not extending flood plain building restrictions far enough though. It only seems to happen now due to insurance companies refusing to offer coverage in areas they deem too risky but other than that we happily build in areas we shouldn't.)
At any rate, we're not meteorological idiots anymore. We know for a fact that hurricanes and tropical storms routinely follow certain paths and hit certain areas over and over and over (Gulf coast, Florida, etc.). We can't act surprised when we build large metropolitan centers in areas known to be in the path of devastating storms. We can no longer claim ignorance because "7 inches of rain can't happen" when the reality is that it can happen, and does happen. The lack of retention and detention basins and proper drainage channels in large cities in these areas is an oversight on the part of public officials. Granted, these things won't completely prevent flooding but they definitely reduce the impact of such disasters. This is indisputable. This isn't ancient Egypt; modern engineering is capable of handling such things as floods. Again, it's not a perfect cure but things can definitely be better in terms of disaster prevention and management in 2017.
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
when this happens, and given that we believe even a bit of the rising seas predictions (btw-i am sure they are rising/will rise, i just dont like the way so many liberals/ other alarmists/ profiteers, are seemingly lining up to make sales pitches for creating whole new economies over the issue) a place like Houston SHOULD NOT ALLOW the rebuilding of any districts eanr the coast or other low lying areas
they should leave the city center where it is and only allow rebuilding/new development in areas to the west/ non low lying areas. re-orient the layout of the city and its surrounds
it is incredibly stupid to continue to rebuild on disaster in the same spot in the same ways. at least some in new orleans put their new homes up on stilts
they should leave the city center where it is and only allow rebuilding/new development in areas to the west/ non low lying areas. re-orient the layout of the city and its surrounds
it is incredibly stupid to continue to rebuild on disaster in the same spot in the same ways. at least some in new orleans put their new homes up on stilts
Gate_Boarder
Well Known GateFan
This must be the 5th go round for the Houston area. Maybe they will stop selling flood insurance after this one.
If I remember correctly Corpus Christi suffered 1,200 casualties at the beginning of the last century.
If I remember correctly Corpus Christi suffered 1,200 casualties at the beginning of the last century.
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
of course, it has been going on for ever
but as mankind is concerned--the native americans avoided the place as permanent settlement
they just had camps there for fishing and sometimes used them as refuge from enemies--in the swamps and barrier islands
one of the early Spanish explorers-De Vaca, was a member of a expedition to Florida and got into trouble. he and his men built rafts and drifted to the barrier islands of texas
between the weather and the non trusting natives-who kept them pinned up on a island out of fear-he was stuck there for several years
walked back to mexico naked
that should have been lesson enough to stay away from the place!