Lost Civilizations

Discussion in 'General Science Discussions' started by yongjin02, Nov 23, 2012.

  1. yongjin02

    yongjin02 Well Known GateFan

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    There are a growing numbers of discoveries and theories that have been coming to light in the past 30-40 years regarding findings of 'lost' towns and cities that are dated back to being much older then established timelines. Many of these are beyond the 10,000 BC/ years ago mark; each time giving our species greater room for the presence of possible lost civilizations actually existing.

    With the exclusion of all the Von Daniken ancient astronaut 'bunk', all of this requires serious discussion on the "how's, why's and who's" of how these sites were made.
    Actually, some have put forward that the pre-ponderance of the ancient astronaut theory has irreparably harmed the chances of any serious discussion on the topic. This is how the established academia likes it; they want to be able to only present that for which they already know the answer.

    There is a lot of information out there on this subject worldwide. I am starting with this and will add more as I "dig it up".

    As a sci fi fan, I find it doubly entertaining when shows/movies tie in their 'canons' with our myth and the possible existence of these ancient civilizations.

    So for starters:
    http://www.livescience.com/10340-lost-civilization-existed-beneath-persian-gulf.html
    --- merged: Nov 23, 2012 at 4:20 PM ---
    here is a site on Puma Punko in S America, this is a non-ancient alien site, it lays out the facts as known and elaborates on the "lego block like" style of the near identical blocks (these ppl had know writing system, mathmatics or any machinery or tools required for mass, nearly identical production that would have been necessary to meet the standards needed. Truly, they must of had some kind of system yet to be discovered:

    http://www.world-mysteries.com/mpl_PumaPunku.htm

    but then here we see how criticism of Ancient Alien theory is used to "shut down" the conversation:



    Again, I am not a believer of ancient alien theory, just using this to show how any talk of possibly real lost civilizations is "shouted down" but not explained.
     
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  2. shavedape

    shavedape Well Known GateFan Staff Member

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    I agree the "ancient aliens" schtick has ruined most legitimate discussion of this topic. I tend to simply ignore such "explanations". Usually I shut down such discussions with the question: "If a species capable of inter-stellar and/or dimensional travel came here thousands of years ago why did they build everything with stone?"

    I too am glad that there's starting to be more and more research into pre-10,000 BC civilization. My old college "world history" text claims that humans didn't begin congregating into "cities" until within that 10,000 BC range, but then goes on to talk about the development of tools being 2.5 million years old and yada yada Hunter/Gatherer, yada, blah. To assume that humans didn't create communities even though they had been around as a species for at least a million years before that (or longer) is rather myopic I think.

    So, it doesn't surprise me that discoveries of civilization older than the 10,000 BC paradigm are being found. To me it's entirely possible and logical even.
     
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  3. SciphonicStranger

    SciphonicStranger Objects may be closer than they appear

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  4. Overmind One

    Overmind One GateFans Gatemaster Staff Member

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    I find it incredibly insulting that European archaeologists/scientists assume that the advanced civilizations which pre-date their existence on this planet must have been built by visiting aliens. As if the indigenous peoples of South America, Africa and the Polynesian islands would be "incapable" of such "amazing" feats. Lets face it, they have been here for HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of years longer than Europeans have existed as a people. And I am picking on the Europeans because they are the only ones who keep putting forth this garbage.

    The timelines, as you have stated, keep having to be rolled back further and further. What I think they will find is that during the glaciation of northern Europe and North America, these civilizations were being built and thriving in the then temperate regions of this planet. The Sahara for instance, is a green watery place during ice ages. Fossils and paleontology as proved this. Also, the oceans recede and meltwater from the glaciers created salt water oceans in the North American western regions of Utah, Wyoming, Colorado, Nevada and other areas. Driving through such regions looks like you are driving across an ancient sea floor and the geology backs it up. The desert areas around Gizeh in Egypt are a result of climate change. The plateau was certainly not as desert when the structures were built.

    In North America, many rivers and valleys were green and forested and when the ice age came to a close, the glaciers which fed the inland seas and rivers dried up. The Salt Flats exist because the salt water ocean which existed there dried up and left the salt behind. In the Nazca plain which is desert now, you find outlying areas which were obviously near large bodies of water which no longer exist. When ice ages happen, the entire globe is not glaciated, just the northern and southern regions. The equatorial regions remain ice free and the temperatures drop to Temperate zone levels, supporting much more diverse life. It was during these times of glaciation which the civilizations were built. We are talking from 20,000 to 50,000 years between these ice ages. Modern Man went from flightless and electric-less to Moon landings and cellphones in a mere 150 years. Who is to say we have not been here (and beyond) before?

    QUESTION: When Mankind has stored all of his books on digital media and when most every advanced device is made of plastics and tiny chips, how much of that would last even 1000 years if thrown into a pit and covered up? Even steel and glass would degrade and finally be indistinguishable from sand and rubble.
     
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  5. yongjin02

    yongjin02 Well Known GateFan

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    yes it does make one wonder why such enthusiasm to 'debunk' the obvious.

    one of my professors had a similar theory on "the shouting down of discussion" on meaningful topics. For his example he used Jesse Ventura's conspiracy theory.

    Now that show has a few ep's that are not too out there, but they do have the doosies that makes one believe that not only Ventura but ANYONE trying to seriously investigate/research any of the topics as a loon. My professor firmly believes that Ventura's show could possibly be a instrument of mass distraction.

    anyway

    I could go on and find many more articles as examples of the ancient, unexplained sites but it really isn't necessary other then for a site by site discussion.

    My overall thing is this: we have always been told/taught that mankind did not settle down and begin towns until around about 4,000 bc or so. that once man found agriculture and specialists were developed for making tools, other for hunting, other ppl for farming, pottery etc. then a surplus of food and goods allowed for a sedentary culture. this gave rise to a ruling class who of course made laws and needed an army, etc.

    Now we have this evidence growing of older sites, we have DNA evidence mounting that shows previously thought of as unrelated ethnicities having "blood" shared between them (ex: middle eastern semites sharing haplogroup types with central european pre-celtics suggesting that "celtic" people also turned south as well as moving west into europe, these are samples taken from remains dated as being from, i believe, 8,000 bc). All of this stuff is from a period in time far older than what we have been taught.

    Not to get off track, but my point is a lot of advancements could have been made in this "new time" of approx 6,000 yrs (or more). this could have taken place in the areas where these older cities and towns have been found. Suggesting that these groups of people would have done their "settling" down and surplus food collecting long before the others we have been taught of.

    Academia says that if these civilizations existed then we would of found their artifacts. Well, they have been found, those that successive ppl's kept in place. An example is the city of Mycenae in Greece. The stones used are so large that when the Dorian Greeks 'found' the ruins they could not figure out how man could build with such sized stones. Their explanation was to come up with the myth of "giants built this" which they supported with the finds of dinosaur bones. The 'city' stands to this day. Another, the sphinx is dated as being far older then then other structures on the giza plain. So who built it?

    When new cities were built, the builders most likely used the already cut stones of the previous buildings. when they dug up ancient (to them) cemeteries they most likely cast them aside or used them as fill (the romans did this in all of their building projects, the romans were not known for their archaeological enthusiasm).

    So what might they have came up with in these "lost" 6,ooo yrs? Where did they go on the planet, what did they discover? Things like the cocaine in the mummies may be there because they may have actually gone to S America. We have written records that a pharaoh commissioned Phoenician sailors to bring a fleet around Egypt--from the Mediterranean, through the S Atlantic and back up to the red sea-so where else may they have gone? Just because a written record has not been found does not mean it didn't happen (we know actually very little of Egypt, Greece or Rome-most is conjecture used to fill in the gaps between what has been found

    Anyhow....
    --- merged: Nov 24, 2012 at 6:00 PM ---
    "QUESTION: When Mankind has stored all of his books on digital media and when most every advanced device is made of plastics and tiny chips, how much of that would last even 1000 years if thrown into a pit and covered up? Even steel and glass would degrade and finally be indistinguishable from sand and rubble."

    the only reason europe was able to eke its way out of the dark ages was because monks had copied selected works of latin and greek, many of which were actual lessons and discussions on medicine and roman building technology, etc. The monks did this (it is believed) not out of a wish to preserve the knowledge but that the process of copying manuscripts was used as a way to build discipline in the monks also as penance. Basically, the monks did not know what they were writing, they were just copying only. When learned men had the religious freedom and courage (in the later 1400's) to obtain, read and apply the knowledge in these books (of course together with other advancements), that is when changes started to happen.

    What worries me about digitization is that say our "fossil fuel" age-with most of the electric-comes to an end, how will it be retrieved? Without hard copies were sunk. When Mycenaean Greek 'books' were destroyed in the invasions of 1200 bc, greece went into a dark age where its inhabitants lost all but the basics of survival, they even forgot how to write and read as no examples remained. Any who were learned and had the means escaped to 'turkey' and became the Ionian greeks.

    so what would happen to us? clearly any 'lost civilization's' physical remains have in large part been either incorporated or outright destroyed or sunk.
     
  6. SciphonicStranger

    SciphonicStranger Objects may be closer than they appear

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    Is there any evidence that the people putting forth their theories in the Ancient Aliens TV show are either archaeologists or scientists?
     
  7. Overmind One

    Overmind One GateFans Gatemaster Staff Member

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    I dont mean them, or the Ancient Aliens TV show or Von Daniken. Just in general.
     
  8. yongjin02

    yongjin02 Well Known GateFan

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    if you bring up any topic related to any evidence of civilization prior to the "established" time frame to any archaeologists/anthropologists in the "mainstream"-they will give you an answer similar to "stick to what we know" type of sphill--which is kind of counter to the whole point of science. The only academia I have ever found to be open to discussion on this were PhD's in History.

    People do not like to have their comfort zones rocked.

    as per Daniken, per his official bio page, he has no formal training other then in the hospitality industry.:

    http://www.daniken.com/e/index.html
     
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  9. shavedape

    shavedape Well Known GateFan Staff Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  10. yongjin02

    yongjin02 Well Known GateFan

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    And this dude has a degree in Sports Management!

    And apparently he is a Stargate fan and advocate :crazy homer face:!!!!!!

    We should start a website to (help) discredit him and 'disconnect' him from SG 'fandom'
    with fans like him, we may never see another SG
    (hey, I wonder if he's TMGM? he is crazy enough)
     
  11. Backstep

    Backstep Guest

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    I love wild hair guy and blinky from the UFO show, pure comedy gold.
     
  12. yongjin02

    yongjin02 Well Known GateFan

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    it would be cool to add his face --this very frame-- to our "smilies" collection. It could be used for 'jackassinine' or any apropos.
     
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  13. Overmind One

    Overmind One GateFans Gatemaster Staff Member

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    Yep, and that is the point I was making in the FTL physics thread. Entrenchment and dogged clinging to the "mainstream" is counter to scientific advancement. But the archaeological evidence we have to look at is tangible. The growth of ancient cultures cannot fit within the 6000 year time frame which comes post-ice age. It is far more likely that these civilizations were being built and advancing DURING the ice age that Europe and North America experienced. The geological evidence is backing this up as well. Carbon dating is falling from favor after decades of using it as a "precision" tool for dating artifacts:

    http://www.nytimes.com/1990/05/31/us/errors-are-feared-in-carbon-dating.html

    From the article:

    I predict that the ancient Egyptian structures will be more accurately dated at over 15,000 years old, not 4,500. Same with Teotihuacan, which is more likely over 10000 years old. One of the main reasons for the denial of the evidence is because many prideful European male scientists do not want to admit that these non-European cultures were building mega-civilizations whilst their ancestors were living in the caves of western Europe during the last ice age. The Indus Valley civilization of Mojengo Daro appears to have been a multi-cultural center for southwest Asia and is also more likely over 10,000 years old. The submurged structures found in the Mediterranean and Baltic seas and off the coasts of Japan and North America were built during a time when the ocean levels were much lower, as they are during the ice ages.
     
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  14. yongjin02

    yongjin02 Well Known GateFan

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    I agree OM1. I just used the "6,000" yrs time for starters.

    Another area to look at-that may be getting close to being "solved", is the question of who the ancient Sumerians were and where they came from (I only used wiki since i have read much of what is there in other sources)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer

    the Sumerians referred to themselves as "the black headed people". in addition to the theory in the article on their origins, new theories-revealed after the "lost towns" were found under the Persian Gulf-suggest that they may have been ecological refugees coming from the south and then sunken land. Adjacent to this "sunken land" is the current southern area of the Arabian peninsula. Cultures with some similarities--but not enough to be conclusive-have been found in the areas of modern day Yemen and Qatar.

    the Sumerians are a bit of a mystery because-as of now-they have no close 'relatives' either by haplogroup or linguistically.

    the people of Mohenjo Daro and Harrappa are equally mysterious. their cities had piped in water and closed sewage systems, thousands of years before the Romans 'discovered' how to do this. They had a unique egalitarian system where no one was held to be in a higher or lower position then any other. Their priests were seen as their leaders and served on a rotating basis. this of course came to an end when the Aryans arrived. The sites of Mohenjo Daro and Harrappa are irradiated, scientists say that at the center of each town a flattened area reminiscent of Nagasaki after the bomb, exists. Many skeletons unearthed at these sites have a high radiation content. Of course there are arguments as to whether this radiation is just a natural occurrence or deliberate attack. The Aryan Vedic texts give descriptions of ancient wars that describe "flying objects" and a weapon that brightened the sky brighter then the sun:

    http://www.beforeus.com/indusa.htm


    If you look at the story of Gilgamesh -held as man's first novel- it contains many familiar tales we read in our bibles and koran. the flood of Noah, the expulsion from Eden (the 'submerged land'?) and the stories in the bible attributed to Abraham have parallels in Gilgamesh.

    An interesting part for me is the story of Enkidu. Enkidu was a "hairy wild man". When Gilgamesh wanted his people tamed a temple prostitute was sent out to win Enkidu's heart and bring him civilization. It has more to the story, but basically what I thought of when I read it was -how old is this story? how long was it passed down verbally from father to son? If it was passed down for generations is it a cultural memory of modern man's first clash with Neanderthal's. (Many of us of central asian and southern european background have Neanderthal "genes" proof of interbreeding (http://news.discovery.com/human/genetics-neanderthal-110718.html) Academia still has its hold out naysayers, but it is hard to dispute DNA results.

    After his taming, Enkidu and his people became "friends" with the Sumerian people of Gilgamesh.


    We still tell tales of mythologies at least 1-2,000yrs old today (ex:clash of the titans) That is how long ago their first writings were made, so how long were they passed down verbally before that?

    Aboriginal elders in Australia can still today recount the generational tales of their tribes going back several hundred(?) generations--this has all been carried forth by word of mouth.
     
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  15. Gatefan1976

    Gatefan1976 Well Known GateFan

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    Can I use this one as well??
    [​IMG]
     
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  16. yongjin02

    yongjin02 Well Known GateFan

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    If you 'vote' for mine, I'll 'vote' for yours..up to OM1 though I guess :rolleye0014:
     
  17. Gate_Boarder

    Gate_Boarder Well Known GateFan

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    I remember discussing this in other places. Over the last 15,000 years the ocean level has increased anywhere from as little as 60 feet to as much as 300 feet according to some sources. Can you imagine how many civilizations have risen and dropped like a rock in that time.

    According to history Alexander's Library in Alexandria, Egypt was told to have contained manuscripts dating back 64,000 years.
     
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  18. Gatefan1976

    Gatefan1976 Well Known GateFan

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    The "Dreamtime" is what came before "us"
    Aboriginals (of the Aussie variety) have been dated as living here for 60,000 years.
    Yeah, umm, some reworking of our historical timelines are in order here. :P
     
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  19. Jim of WVa

    Jim of WVa Well Known GateFan

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    If those manuscripts were that old, then where did they come from? There was no civilization in Egypt 64,000 BP.
    --- merged: Nov 26, 2012 at 5:08 PM ---
    http://ancientaliensdebunked.com
     
  20. yongjin02

    yongjin02 Well Known GateFan

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    how could anyone state that definitively? maybe though GB got "happy" with his zero key and put on one too many?
     
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