First official trailer for EP 7

[shavedape]

I agree that 1-3 sucked for the most part, I jus think your "treatment" sucks just as bad.

I don't think JL's treatment sucked in comparison to the dreck that we got as the actual movies. Think about it, that treatment is just something JL came up with off the top of his head whereas Lucas had a virtual army of creative people helping him to create this story. Given the same time and support that Lucas got it seems to me that anyone clever enough could come up with something better than those horrible prequels.

With the original trilogy of movies starting with #4, "A New Hope", we got an easily understandable and linear story all the way through. But with the prequels we got a confusing mish mash of tedious, boring, unintelligible sequences filled with ridiculous characters that acted stupid as a matter of course. And the "action" sequences were devoid of any sort of intrigue or titillation for the most part. It was one thing to relate to Luke and Han running around the Death Star but it's hard to empathize with Obi Wan riding a cartoon lizard as he fights Grievous.

As for the viewers being invested into the plot, the story, well of course that's important. You want viewers to relate to the protagonists and root for them. That's why adventure stories have been so successful, we like to see ourselves in those roles. It's human nature and empathizing with the characters can be traced back to ancient Greece where storytelling was used as a purgative, cathartic process for the viewers of those plays.

That said, we obviously all agree that the prequels were awful and could have been done much, much better.

 

[Gatefan1976]

It would be hard to find a larger example of an "idiot" plot than the prequels.

I am not defending the bad writing of 1-3.

And its called being invested not inserted. Why should a battle between two groups of disposable items have any emotional impact? Why should it mean anything? When you show zero effect of the war on the Republic it robs the war itself of any emotional impact.

Ep 1: The fight is between the Droids and the Gungans, the only people capable of defending their home in a "traditional war". Now, as much as the Gungans were jokey crap, they were not clones, but people putting their lives on the line -not just for themselves, but for all the people of Naboo.
Ep 2: The fight is mainly between the Geonosians and the clones, and is part of a rescue, and not really a war -per se.
Ep 3: There is no real "war" besides the space battle at the beginning.

What is the problem with actually having the war be impactful? Having it hit the common person?

It does in Ep 1, and 2-3 don't have much of a "war" in them, at least not "up front", they are more background issues to the other issues of the movies.

As to my short example list - all are valid.

OK, let's have a look.

Why didn't Dooku simply say that Palpatine was Sidious right when Palpatine told Anakin to kill him? End result, Anakin stops - Dooku captured - rats out Palpatine and game over.

Do you think Anakin would have listened?
Do you think Sidious would have told him to do it if he thought Dooku would survive?

Obi-Wan knew about Kamino making a clone army BEFORE the Republic voted up emergency powers. But for unknown reasons neglects to tell the Senate or the Jedi Council. Had he done so the emergency powers act is immediately undermined as the question suddenly comes up of Kamino just happening to have a complete clone army ready to go right when Palpatine needs it. How did he know about Kamino when it was wiped from the database? Again the plot needs stupidity (this time by Obi-Wan) to proceed.

No
Obi-wan transmits the existence of the clone army, an army that the Kiminoians have been told is being built for the Republic. Given that information, that the Republic has an army and is being threatened by the trade federation and the seperatists, the Senate, which is already corrupt votes "emergency powers" to the chancellor. ALL of this is planned by Sideous, none of it is "random" or "by the way"

Anakin had indeed been exposed to evil before - remember slavery, mom murdered? Also it took him a ridiculous amount of time to think that this person who despises the Jedi and talks on and on about the benefits of being a Sith Lord....might be a Sith Lord. Again the plot relies on idiocy to move forward.

No
Slavery is a common practice on the rim, therefore it is not evil -by the standards of the day-
Mom murdered? Anakin felt justified in taking his revenge, so I doubt he would have viewed his actions as evil. He regretted it, sure, His confession to Padme shows that.
Sidious -mentions the Sith, that is true, but he never presents them as "evil", merely following a different path to the Jedi. He plays on Anakin's fears to justify these breaches of Jedi protocol. Eternal life, wanting to heal everyone sounds good in theory, but Sideous never mentions the cost of these things.

Then there is General Grevious, who just does whatever Palpatine says no matter how stupid the command - and commands like putting all the separatist leaders in one place were extremely stupid. Plus, let's remember he was not aware of Palpatine's identity - so why not just kill him when he captured him thus winning the war? Again a character has to be dumb to advance the plot.

Grevious works for Dooku.

Likewise Nute Gunray just keeps listening to Palpatine despite never receiving anything for his efforts. And inserting a threat to his life never stated in the movie doesn't work - it has to be stated in the movie to be valid.

Why was Gunray not imprisoned after the attack on Naboo?

I haven't even gotten into Yoda's foolishness or the foolishness of the Senate or the Jedi Council.

Please do.

Again I could go on and on and on and on and on. But the entire "plot" of the prequels absolutely requires utter stupidity on the part of all the characters to function.

No, it requires meticulous planning on the part of Sideous, something that is mentioned on more than one occasion.

So, what's wrong with a simple plot shift (making the clones the enemy) which offers the following advantages:

- 100% compatible with the Original Trilogy

Who is the enemy of the clones?
What army is the Republic using?

- Gives the war emotional impact

Subjective, because the War is not just between the clones and the droids.

- Allows Palpatine to come to power without requiring everyone else to be idiots in the bargain

No one had to be "an idiot", Sideous controlled the flow of information.

I guess the plots of the prequels tick me off so much because with even just a little thinking those films could have been pretty nice. They had the SFX technology and except for Natalie "wood" Portman the cast was good too. Instead the scripts were rushed and poorly thought out and relied on what is to me the worst of the "tropes" - reliance on foolishness/people not speaking to advance the story.

Yes, they could have been so much better, and I wish they were all that much better. What we disagree on is -how- they could have been better.

 

[Gatefan1976]

I don't think JL's treatment sucked in comparison to the dreck that we got as the actual movies. Think about it, that treatment is just something JL came up with off the top of his head whereas Lucas had a virtual army of creative people helping him to create this story. Given the same time and support that Lucas got it seems to me that anyone clever enough could come up with something better than those horrible prequels.

I have ZERO doubt that JL could come up with a better notion given the resources, I am saying it sucks just as bad as what we were delivered.
This is not a "hate on" Joe in the slightest, but it is obvious it is "top of the head", and to compare the two, I have to actually compare the 2 concepts.

With the original trilogy of movies starting with #4, "A New Hope", we got an easily understandable and linear story all the way through.

1-3 are just as linear as 4-6, the gaps are larger, no more.

But with the prequels we got a confusing mish mash of tedious, boring, unintelligible sequences filled with ridiculous characters that acted stupid as a matter of course. And the "action" sequences were devoid of any sort of intrigue or titillation for the most part. It was one thing to relate to Luke and Han running around the Death Star but it's hard to empathize with Obi Wan riding a cartoon lizard as he fights Grievous.

What we got was crap sprayed on a magnificent painting for the sake of "because we can"

As for the viewers being invested into the plot, the story, well of course that's important. You want viewers to relate to the protagonists and root for them. That's why adventure stories have been so successful, we like to see ourselves in those roles. It's human nature and empathizing with the characters can be traced back to ancient Greece where storytelling was used as a purgative, cathartic process for the viewers of those plays.

Sure, the Hero's Journey has existed for millennia, but 1-3 (or even 1-5) are not about the hero, but the building and subsequent fall of the hero until his eventual redemption in ep 6 where he still pays the price for his evildoing. He restores his name, but nothing else.

That said, we obviously all agree that the prequels were awful and could have been done much, much better.

Yup, certainly could have been.

 

[YJ02]

Obi Wan name dropped "clone wars" not "clone trooper". And the way the Clone Wars was realized in the prequels was horrific and led to a silly conflict (robots versus clones) where nothing ever showed any signs of harm from the war and hence the viewer winds up not caring one whit about the war or its participants.

Try this instead....

The "Clone Wars" are the name given a series of attacks on the Republic by a mysterious enemy whose armies (discovered by examination of the dead) are all clones. The Republic has to resort to mass conscription to raise armies to defend itself and those armies suffer heavy casualties, with the combination of the losses and diversion of workforce causing great economic and social disruption in the Republic, which finally bands tighter together into an Empire to defeat the clones. After the victory, with the Empire reeling from the destruction and losses an unscrupulous senator named Palpatine gets acclaimed as Emperor, with an improperly trained Jedi pupil named Darth Vader at his side he wipes out those Jedi not already fallen fighting the clone invasions.

See? Now the battles in the films mean something and there are actual stakes and it fits seamlessly into the OT.

yes but like it has been said many times--we gotta go with what we have been given,so.... gotta love Jar Jar whether you like him or not

 

[YJ02]

Yeah, it is sorta funny dude.

Did you ever think about WHY having two disposable sides matters to the story, or just how the "viewer" may perceive them?
The fight is a -distraction-, not a means to and end, same as Maul was, and Dooku, they are distractions. Both are easily disposable to Palpatine because his goal is not "control of the senate", but the destruction of the Jedi in retaliation for their destruction of the Sith, Galaxy spanning control is a well constructed "bonus". Palpatine would have burned the entire galaxy down to kill the Jedi.


What do you mean by OT?
Original Timeline?

yes but Darth Maul is a part of the story we have been given
he is also--like Ashoka Tano-another survivor of the CLONE WARS series

remember in last ep he was captured by Dooku who said he had plans for him?

speculation is that Maul is the head Inquisitor--the "far worse thing then death" the inquisitor refers to before he dies (referring to Mauls resurrection and torture/rebranding by Dooku?)

not what i think though--hopefully they leave Maul gone and forgotten

 

[Gatefan1976]

yes but Darth Maul is a part of the story we have been given
he is also--like Ashoka Tano-another survivor of the CLONE WARS series

Yes, but all 3 were out before TCW series was, and is much better than all 3 movies

remember in last ep he was captured by Dooku who said he had plans for him?

Dooku's plans don't matter, he's dead.

speculation is that Maul is the head Inquisitor--the "far worse thing then death" the inquisitor refers to before he dies (referring to Mauls resurrection and torture/rebranding by Dooku?)

I think they will draw on the EU for the head inquisitor (Tremayne) for that, but it may happen, sure.

not what i think though--hopefully they leave Maul gone and forgotten

Indeed.

 

[YJ02]

Yes, but all 3 were out before TCW series was, and is much better than all 3 movies

Dooku's plans don't matter, he's dead.

I think they will draw on the EU for the head inquisitor (Tremayne) for that, but it may happen, sure.


Indeed.

yeah but Dooku just did what Palpatine told him,so...

and besides the kiddies love Maul... a prime Disney consideration

 

[YJ02]

Little snippet on designing the first light saber

https://www.yahoo.com/movies/see-how-the-lightsaber-was-designed-in-115879443857.html

 

[Jim of WVa]

 

[Joelist]

Looks nice. And the mood it sets feels right also.

I love that backdrop shot of the wreckage of the Star Destroyer and the old, burned Vader helmet. Suggest some part of the film occurs on Endor.

 

[Overmind One]

It looks great. Hopefully, the story will be as great....Im hopeful.

 

[Overmind One]

*SIGH*

New Star Wars droid BB-8? Cute, but impractical and gimmicky to me. He is in the movie.


This droid will be a regular. What else can we look forward to?

 

[Joelist]

Practicality depends on what that droid is intended to be used for. Perhaps it is a small, quick recon/surveillance droid or something like that - in which case it's form makes sense. I like the fact that it is not CGI but an actual robot - I would guess that Disney pointed them at one of those robotics shops that make battlebots and the like - I would be interested in knowing who created it because as a robotic device it is ingenious.

 

[shavedape]

Practicality depends on what that droid is intended to be used for. Perhaps it is a small, quick recon/surveillance droid or something like that - in which case it's form makes sense. I like the fact that it is not CGI but an actual robot - I would guess that Disney pointed them at one of those robotics shops that make battlebots and the like - I would be interested in knowing who created it because as a robotic device it is ingenious.

The cynic in me just assumes the droid will serve as comic relief for the pre-pubescent crowd. It's a shame really because they are a fascinating device but Lucas has seen fit to turn droid characters into metallic versions of Laurel and Hardy.

 

[Joelist]

That's why it's a good thing Lucas is not involved.

 

[shavedape]

That's why it's a good thing Lucas is not involved.

Yes, but are the people holding the reins now courageous enough not to turn droids into comedians? I fear that it is now part of the average droid "personality".

 

[Joelist]

Well with Lawrence Kasdan handling a lot of the writing (The Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi, Raiders of the Lost Ark) I have some hope we won't see overt goofiness as he shied away from it in his other work.

 

[shavedape]

Well with Lawrence Kasdan handling a lot of the writing (The Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi, Raiders of the Lost Ark) I have some hope we won't see overt goofiness as he shied away from it in his other work.

I can't remember exactly but was Kasdan in any way affiliated with them making RotJ into the Teddy Bear Picnic?

 

[Joelist]

It looks like Kasdan originally wanted to have it be Wookies that defeated the Imperial troops (and hence the setting would have been a planet with Wookies) but Lucas vetoed it. Either way it didn't really detract from RotJ.

 

[Overmind One]

Practicality depends on what that droid is intended to be used for. Perhaps it is a small, quick recon/surveillance droid or something like that - in which case it's form makes sense. I like the fact that it is not CGI but an actual robot - I would guess that Disney pointed them at one of those robotics shops that make battlebots and the like - I would be interested in knowing who created it because as a robotic device it is ingenious.

I think that robotically speaking, it is ingenious. As a motorized prop, it is brilliant. As a droid in Star Wars, it is a gimmick. When you have recon droids that can fly like this one, using it for recon makes no sense. We have seen several different varieties of flying spy droids.

As an astro droid, it makes no sense at all to be a ball. However on the ground, a ball droid makes sense as it could traverse any sort of terrain...but the "head" on the droid makes no sense. You could suspend the stable part of the controls on a gimbal INSIDE the droid, eliminating the need for a head. The design is clearly inferior to R2D2, which is already inferior to C3PO.

Like I said, it's cute. Its different and unique in Star Wars, but it makes no sense and represents exactly what I expect from JJ Abrams. Different for the sake of being different, not necessarily being a useful difference. BTW, in the longer trailer, we see the Millenium Falcon, and we see several of the new X-wing fighters. As I expected, the engines split down the horizontal diameter, leaving a semi-circular shaped engine sitting like orange slices on each wing. Again, different, but not logical or particularly useful.

Im sorry, Im just not that accepting of making changes to things that don't need changes, just for the sake of making them unique. I would love to see the car that JJ drives. No doubt it has 6 wheels, a door on the roof, and a square steering wheel.

Having complained about the changes and giving thumbs down to design elements of the light saber, the Millenium Falcon and the X-wing (and now BB-8), this movie will be a financial success worldwide. Since that is the goal, it will meet and far exceed that goal. But as far as being true to Star Wars in the spiritual sense, it will be devoid of a soul...just like Star Trek.

analogy....this is a "stock" CLS Mercedes

JJ Abrams version:

JJ overdoes everything. I find him tacky and annoying, and Star Trek 2009 and STID were exactly what is to be expected of him. Before those films, I had no way to predict anything. But this new Star Wars, as great as it looks may not feel right.