Anybody seen the Desolation of Smaug (Hobbit 2) yet?

YJ02

Well Known GateFan
I type corrected, you are quite right, I was thinking of the actor. :P


What are these books, what authors??

I have the motivation, I have read many of them, I just dislike his writing style.

Easy big guy, not knocking ya', if anything, I slight myself and my early sedentary lifestyle :anim_59:

Of the top of my head-a distinct knock off that I started reading awhile back and stopped, was Sword of Shannara by Brooks. Brooks himself indirectly states that he was 'lifting' from Tolkien.

http://shannara.wikia.com/wiki/The_Sword_of_Shannara

as to other copiers, here is a quick and neat listing of some of them:

http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/607.Most_Obvious_Tolkien_Imitators
 

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
Easy big guy, not knocking ya', if anything, I slight myself and my early sedentary lifestyle :anim_59:

Of the top of my head-a distinct knock off that I started reading awhile back and stopped, was Sword of Shannara by Brooks. Brooks himself indirectly states that he was 'lifting' from Tolkien.

http://shannara.wikia.com/wiki/The_Sword_of_Shannara

as to other copiers, here is a quick and neat listing of some of them:

http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/607.Most_Obvious_Tolkien_Imitators

The problem I have with lists like this, is that because Tolkien was the first "modern Epic fantasy writer" it somehow follows that anyone who has written high fantasy after him is copying him, and it's utter bull. Mention an elf or and orc or a dwarf, it MUST be Tolkien, forgetting the fact that Tolkien himself lifted vast chunks (like elves and dwarves for starters) of his "genius" from older works, but everyone seems to forget that.

As for the books on the list......................
I'll give Shannara as a rip off of Tolkien.
Eragon bears some superficial similarities, but is more like a Feist rip-off.
Feist (Magician) is HARDLY a rip off of Tolkien, Tolkien is what is known as a "low magic fantasy", and when your main character is a uber powerful magician............
Guy Gavriel Kay (Fionavar tapestry) owes far more to Michael Moorcock' Eternal champion series and Arthurian myth than Tolkien.
The Dragonlance series owes a few nods to Tolkien, but a few is it..

As for the rest, I have not read them, so I will not comment, but that covers 8 out of the 30 books on that list.
 

YJ02

Well Known GateFan
The problem I have with lists like this, is that because Tolkien was the first "modern Epic fantasy writer" it somehow follows that anyone who has written high fantasy after him is copying him, and it's utter bull. Mention an elf or and orc or a dwarf, it MUST be Tolkien, forgetting the fact that Tolkien himself lifted vast chunks (like elves and dwarves for starters) of his "genius" from older works, but everyone seems to forget that.

As for the books on the list......................
I'll give Shannara as a rip off of Tolkien.
Eragon bears some superficial similarities, but is more like a Feist rip-off.
Feist (Magician) is HARDLY a rip off of Tolkien, Tolkien is what is known as a "low magic fantasy", and when your main character is a uber powerful magician............
Guy Gavriel Kay (Fionavar tapestry) owes far more to Michael Moorcock' Eternal champion series and Arthurian myth than Tolkien.
The Dragonlance series owes a few nods to Tolkien, but a few is it..

As for the rest, I have not read them, so I will not comment, but that covers 8 out of the 30 books on that list.

Ah, yes but the "main character/magician (I assume you mean Gandalf)" is not just a wizard-he is actually a Maiar-not human nor Elven but a divine being-a lesser god-though he doesn't have 'waking knowledge' of this status.

Yes, Tolkien's Elves and Dwarves are taken from mythologies of northern Europe-he was after all, a professor of Anglo Saxon literature. But he began writing using these ideas during WW1, who wrote using these types of characters--in a non-magical way-before that? Possibly there is someone, but have they achieved the same notoriety?

In the books of his/Christopher's editing- among other things it is shown that 'Orc' comes from the old English "Orkon" which means demon. So while Tolkien uses names and designations from archaic real life languages-the other writers are using Tolkien's stuff-so if he would have never used Orc from Orkon, the others would not have this to 'borrow'. Additionally, for reasons of his quirkiness with language, he refused to us "elf" and used "elven/elves" instead-however inconvenient it may had been for his editors.

And all of the books on the list or others MAY WELL BE good books on their own, but do they have to make then so obviously 'akin' to Tolkien's works? Why not use a different nomenclature for their creatures/beings?
 

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
Oh, because it sells it is the "source" of such stuff??
He ripped off Nordic myth, myth that has existed for hundreds of years before Tolkien stalwarts want to claim it as "his"
They can all GTFO as far as I am concerned, he is as much a "plagerist" as those who used his idea's as a template.
He created a unique synthesis of Nordic myth and fantasy, and he was a brilliant writer with a fantasitic vision, but to claim it was "his" is the deluded ravings of people who don't know where stories come from, and I will not entertain their ignorance. He used an idea, and people who followed him used an idea as well. If using an Idea to craft your own story must be "unique", we have not had any advances in storytelling for thousands of years.
Tolkien was a visionary, his "purist" followers are damn sheep.
In the books of his/Christopher's editing- among other things it is shown that 'Orc' comes from the old English "Orkon" which means demon. So while Tolkien uses names and designations from archaic real life languages-the other writers are using Tolkien's stuff-so if he would have never used Orc from Orkon, the others would not have this to 'borrow'. Additionally, for reasons of his quirkiness with language, he refused to us "elf" and used "elven/elves" instead-however inconvenient it may had been for his editors.
So everyone else is just too stupid to look at where he got his Idea's from??

And all of the books on the list or others MAY WELL BE good books on their own, but do they have to make then so obviously 'akin' to Tolkien's works? Why not use a different nomenclature for their creatures/beings?
TOLKIEN WAS, AND IS A MYTHOLOGY THIEF, A PLAGERIST OF THE FIRST ORDER!!!
For his fans to complain is beyond pathetic. He used existing idea's and put his own spin on them, just like all the authors that people try to compare Tolkien to the grandfather of fantasy try to do. Quite frankly they Can GTFO, or deliver nods to Nordic myth, or Greeco-Roman myth, or Egyptiaian myth, or Sumarian Myth. They told these stories first, and to claim that some dickhead English professor made them up first is a damn INSULT to the source material he ripped off.

Alternatively
Instead of the piss poor ignorant rage, we can accept that stories have commonalities, which is why Beowulf, Marduk, The Oddesy/Illiad, the writings of Shakespeare still are just as relavent today as when they were first penned.[/quote]
 
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Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
OH, and by the way Elves come from Alfs, Either Alfhiem (light elf home) or Svartalfheim (dark elf home)
Colour me shocked that Orcs are the corrupted souls of elves.
 

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
Ah, yes but the "main character/magician (I assume you mean Gandalf)" is not just a wizard-he is actually a Maiar-not human nor Elven but a divine being-a lesser god-though he doesn't have 'waking knowledge' of this status.
Oh, I missed this bit in my fantasy geek rage. :lol:

No, I did not mean Gandalf, or any of the other Maiar, I meant Pug from the Magician series. In fantasy terms, JRR T's world is extremely magic poor, Gandalf does not cast about fireballs, or decimate his enemies with a wave of his staff, he performs what would be considered in high fantasy novels, mere parlour tricks. Pug on the other hand can destroy the fantasy equivalent of the greatest arena of Rome by an act of will and can travel between the voids between dimensions and even manipulate time itself, he is more akin to a force of nature, tempered by his personal experiences. Despite that, he is far more of a "human character" because he has free will, whereas Gandalf does not to a certain extent, which is why Gandalf is not the Hero of LOTR, it is Frodo (or Sam if you really want to quibble).
 

YJ02

Well Known GateFan
Oh, I missed this bit in my fantasy geek rage. :lol:

No, I did not mean Gandalf, or any of the other Maiar, I meant Pug from the Magician series. In fantasy terms, JRR T's world is extremely magic poor, Gandalf does not cast about fireballs, or decimate his enemies with a wave of his staff, he performs what would be considered in high fantasy novels, mere parlour tricks. Pug on the other hand can destroy the fantasy equivalent of the greatest arena of Rome by an act of will and can travel between the voids between dimensions and even manipulate time itself, he is more akin to a force of nature, tempered by his personal experiences. Despite that, he is far more of a "human character" because he has free will, whereas Gandalf does not to a certain extent, which is why Gandalf is not the Hero of LOTR, it is Frodo (or Sam if you really want to quibble).

Yup

Another thing with the "imitators (just keep it at that for clarity)" is that any of there wizards are wizards just because and have no or little depth to the "why" of who they are. In the LOTR, Hobbit, Rings of Power..., and the other writings, it gives Gandalf's and the other "wizards" bio so to speak.

In the Silmarillion, though he his not named Gandalf he is listed in the "of the Ainur" chapter on the gods and their "people" (the maiar). Gandalf is one of the "people" of Manwe-the chief god (the Zeus figure) who is also the god of the air and winds and the all birds-here we get the reason-by deduction-why Gandalf has an affinity and a certain command over the eagles and all other things of the air.

Saruman is of Aule's people-as was Sauron-the god who is the smith of and creator of all handicrafts. He is the equivalent of Hephaestus. He is also the 'father' of the dwarves. This explains why Saruman and Sauron are both able smiths and why they are both cunning,etc.

Gandalf and the other 'wizards'were sent to ME on a mission of sorts, So, yes, they were not supposed to have free will to the extent of not changing their 'long course' of assistance to the people of ME against Sauron. Of course, Gandalf is really the only one who stays true to this mission and rejected any temptations for power- and the others had went astray;Saruman after the kingdoms of men and power, Radagast became lost in the trees and the two unnamed "blue" wizards went into the far east to try and dissuade men from following Sauron-who they worshiped as God

I would agree that in the book and the film, Sam is the hero--Frodo wouldn't have gotten very far without him. He is kind of like a Sancho to Frodo's Don Quixote (though Frodo doesn't start out "batty")

Now I am reading "Lost tales, part one". The story of Aelfwine-the human, and his visit to Eressea where he meets the Elves and is told the story of the Silmarillion and all the other "history". This was a story never fully finished by Tolkien. It was to be his vehicle for tying all the stories to our world.
 

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
It did have some very filler-ish elements to it, didn't it.

Anyway, welcome to the madhouse :)
 

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
Define crazy, you may have just gone from the frying pan to the fire :lol:
 

run_away

GateFans Noob
Crazy as intense maybe? I like some of the threads there, but they get so specific on things that are subjective. I have to stay away when it gets ugly.
 

YJ02

Well Known GateFan
Thank you. I love a good tv/sci fi forum. I'm on Gallifreybase but sometimes they get too crazy for me. Thanks for the welcome!

Do they only discuss DR WHO there, or do they branch out from the main reason for the site like we do. We are all fans of..what is it again???

Oh, yeah--SGU:vala-newanime016:
 

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
Bring forth the Lyre, we have a keyboard to scrub, and a mind to reprogram.
 

heisenberg

Earl Grey
Never again, am I watching another hobbit movie, let alone peter jackson movie. Jesus christ, I nearly fell asleep. Obscure, boring and tediously long. Could we get more science fiction please? There is already enough fantasy on tv at it is...
 
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