Lost Civilizations and human pre- history

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
more evidence of ancient global warming :)

3000 (est) yr old fortress ruins in Turkish lake

https://news.nationalgeographic.com...urartu-lake-van-turkey-archaeology-video-spd/

There are examples all over the world with regard to the ancient kingdoms around the world. The Cliff House civilization in Mesa Verde Arizona was a fishing/farming civilization. The area where it is today is desert. The Nile used to flow less than 300 yards away from the pyramids of Egypt, and it is now more than 5 miles east of them. The Sahara itself used to be wetlands and grasslands.

https://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/w...ts-that-used-to-be-verdant-fields-and-forests

Evidence points to both ancient global warming AND ancient ice ages. It's a cycle, and Man has nothing to do with it. Just because we don't like the changes and we have stupidly built concrete cities on coastlines and next to rivers which are trying to change their courses like they always have.
 

YJ02

Well Known GateFan
There are examples all over the world with regard to the ancient kingdoms around the world. The Cliff House civilization in Mesa Verde Arizona was a fishing/farming civilization. The area where it is today is desert. The Nile used to flow less than 300 yards away from the pyramids of Egypt, and it is now more than 5 miles east of them. The Sahara itself used to be wetlands and grasslands.

https://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/w...ts-that-used-to-be-verdant-fields-and-forests

Evidence points to both ancient global warming AND ancient ice ages. It's a cycle, and Man has nothing to do with it. Just because we don't like the changes and we have stupidly built concrete cities on coastlines and next to rivers which are trying to change their courses like they always have.

yes the first line of my post was in sarcasm :)

those of us attuned to this tread have discussed these things already, i am more interested in anything newly found and the who what and why's (their settling, culture and failures) then going over what SHOULD be know by now by any HS school graduate (emphasis on SHOULD)

And when i speak of ancient, i mean pre roman, or at least roman republic. to me, anything 'common era (A.D.)' is more recent history despite the age

i am interested really interested, in what went on BEFORE what established academia keeps telling us. like, what happened about 10,000 yrs ago--happenings other then geological/meteorological. things that led to the relatively rapid development of cities, 'states' and 'sudden' switch from hunter gatherer to farming

And,so much more..... :)

my only interest in the seeming impossibilities of either time travel or immortality, would be to get answers to these wonderings
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
yes the first line of my post was in sarcasm :)

those of us attuned to this tread have discussed these things already, i am more interested in anything newly found and the who what and why's (their settling, culture and failures) then going over what SHOULD be know by now by any HS school graduate (emphasis on SHOULD)

And when i speak of ancient, i mean pre roman, or at least roman republic. to me, anything 'common era (A.D.)' is more recent history despite the age

i am interested really interested, in what went on BEFORE what established academia keeps telling us. like, what happened about 10,000 yrs ago--happenings other then geological/meteorological. things that led to the relatively rapid development of cities, 'states' and 'sudden' switch from hunter gatherer to farming

And,so much more..... :)

my only interest in the seeming impossibilities of either time travel or immortality, would be to get answers to these wonderings

Everything points to some sort of global cataclysm along with gradual climate change and migration to new areas. The cliff dwellers evidently had time to move, as did the Inca and the Easter Islanders and the Nazca and the Sahara civilizations. Climate Change is a natural process. A cycle. The only part of addressing it that I am against is the notion that somehow we can stop or slow it. We can't. Besides that, how will selling Carbon Credits or raising taxes on corporations do anything for climate change? Looks to me like yet another quick money grab by governments or corporations invested in remediation (conveniently). NOTHING can be done to change the cycle. The flooding of the Mississippi and in Louisiana is a good example. The Mississippi is simply trying to change it's course like it always has. Satellite imagery shows that it has been as far west as west Texas. There are still remnants of the old river deltas in the Gulf of Mexico to prove it. New Orleans is in the way. So, they whine about flooding and blame it on manmade climate change.
 

YJ02

Well Known GateFan
Everything points to some sort of global cataclysm along with gradual climate change and migration to new areas. The cliff dwellers evidently had time to move, as did the Inca and the Easter Islanders and the Nazca and the Sahara civilizations. Climate Change is a natural process. A cycle. The only part of addressing it that I am against is the notion that somehow we can stop or slow it. We can't. Besides that, how will selling Carbon Credits or raising taxes on corporations do anything for climate change? Looks to me like yet another quick money grab by governments or corporations invested in remediation (conveniently). NOTHING can be done to change the cycle. The flooding of the Mississippi and in Louisiana is a good example. The Mississippi is simply trying to change it's course like it always has. Satellite imagery shows that it has been as far west as west Texas. There are still remnants of the old river deltas in the Gulf of Mexico to prove it. New Orleans is in the way. So, they whine about flooding and blame it on manmade climate change.

i agree with all of that, and for me? well i have been reading things like that in academic and non academic historical and archaeological publishing for a long time now (the weather and geological issues)

for me, i am way more interested in the changes to the people and their cultures.

anything from why did ppl finally stop killing off kids born with green and blue eyes?

some child bones found-a very,very few--possess the genetic markers for blue and green eyes. yet the dating off the bones and the level they are buried at suggest a much older date then what any bones found of adults with the same markers that are dated to about 10-12,000 yrs ago

that means, for quite a while, babies born with green or blue eyes were killed off-sacrifice? taboo?

whatever the reason-what made them stop killing? and on a regional level not just at a local one--both practices occurred

then things of a larger scale; the spread and diversification of languages// the rise of cities and city states, the rise of agriculture. sure, those ast two have environmental 'shapers' and modifiers, but it took ppl to realise they had a chance-given to them by environmental change-- to capitalize on these changes

to me that suggests a much higher level of sophistication..not anything 'modern science' but more then what the academic regime would have us believe -- a fairly brutish society not capable of making such leaps in cultural/lifestyle
change

all without aliens mind you!!! that 'explains it all" bullshit-though entertaining, is just lazy way at "understanding". hell, i wouldn't be surprised if academia WERE the ones behind starting the ancient alien crap to shut people up.

and dont even get me going--or do--on how seemingly incapable ppl made such precise cuttings of granite in places in south america (Pumapunku) and the mid east (Gobelke Tepe/ Egypt, others for example)
 
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Gate_Boarder

Well Known GateFan
Ah, come on! We all know they were dumber than ducks, way back then. It had to be the friggin' aliens.

Now, with the earth supposedly being 450 million years older according to some, does anybody else think twenty major civilizations such as ours could of risen and fallen in that short little time of ours..
 

Lord Ba'al

Well Known GateFan
First thing I thought of when hearing about the ruins at the bottom of the lake was the bible story about the great flooding. I know it's not the same time period but can't help but think that with the way things were communicated way back when the difference between 1000 years and 10000 years is somehow negligible.
 
First thing I thought of when hearing about the ruins at the bottom of the lake was the bible story about the great flooding. I know it's not the same time period but can't help but think that with the way things were communicated way back when the difference between 1000 years and 10000 years is somehow negligible.

You probably know this but stories about a "great flood" predate the Judeo-Christian bible tale of Noah. Civilization-destroying floods were a meme long before that.
 

YJ02

Well Known GateFan
its pretty much a dead match for the Noah story being taken from the GILGAMESH epic, along with some other ideas that got into the Jewish holy books.

pretty much every civ has a flood story-no doubt all derived from the period of ancient global warming

yet another way to diff ourselves from the apes. ice melts and makes floods/more rain--apes would just look for shelter. we made up fabulous stories trying to explain them because we we are least looking for some answers

of course, since the 'religious' dudes had the market cornered on story telling, it always comes out that god/gods did it (leading to the "thats why you have to bring me gold, food and young girls so that i can make god happy for you" line of exploitation that still goes on till today.)
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
its pretty much a dead match for the Noah story being taken from the GILGAMESH epic, along with some other ideas that got into the Jewish holy books.

pretty much every civ has a flood story-no doubt all derived from the period of ancient global warming

yet another way to diff ourselves from the apes. ice melts and makes floods/more rain--apes would just look for shelter. we made up fabulous stories trying to explain them because we we are least looking for some answers

of course, since the 'religious' dudes had the market cornered on story telling, it always comes out that god/gods did it (leading to the "thats why you have to bring me gold, food and young girls so that i can make god happy for you" line of exploitation that still goes on till today.)

I am pretty certain he is talking about WAY before that. Before the Biblical timeframe, before Gilgamesh and before Judaism. Ancient cultures like the ones in South America, Africa and the South Pacific and Southeast Asia.
 

YJ02

Well Known GateFan
I am pretty certain he is talking about WAY before that. Before the Biblical timeframe, before Gilgamesh and before Judaism. Ancient cultures like the ones in South America, Africa and the South Pacific and Southeast Asia.

right..the flood that inspired these stories is most likely a global happening that occurred after the last ice age and then maybe smaller events after the 'mini' ice age that came later

both of those happened 4-5 thousand yrs before Sumerian or Egyptian culture (that we know of)

but there were other mini cultures, local groups of farmers in the mid east and whatever the state of culture was in egypt at the time (talking like approx. 8,000 bce)

these ppl would have had stories passes on to them from those who were alive at the time of the "flood(s)". the stories got passed down, gen to gen, village to village, etc

when we get to writing with cuneiform and other methods, it is not till much later and then those verbal stories were put into print

these stories have tremendous staying power. for example, we still make tv shows and movies, books about the ancient religion of the greeks and anatolia; the whole pantheon of gods and heroes. no longer a religion and they were verbal traditions before any greek wrote them down, but even now, 3000 yrs later, we are still telling those stories.

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as far as places that seem to been flooded on sudden-an actual flood. it is believed that after sea levels, and glacial melt got so high for so long slowly, then there were incidents of quick massive flooding

it is thought that the black sea was oince much much smaller and had no outlet to the med. as it does now.when the med's levels rose high enough the waters burst through and smaller and smaller land bridge between anatolia and europe creating an actual flood

i am sure similar things like that happened all over the world and affected every culture that was in being at the time --the red sea, the persian gulf, the caribean, england and ireland (interesting the theory on why no snakes in ireland is connected to this--the irish sea flooded during a time when europe was still too cold for snakes, the english channel did not flood till much later when Europe was warm enough for snakes) were once-recently, part of europe. the yellow sea between china and korea was prob all land till the ocean rose and flooded in.

maybe one day we will get ppl to the floors of all these places to make more aggressive explorations

-----
again,,someone make us a time machine :)
 
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YJ02

Well Known GateFan
about lost civilizations...

just watched this on amazon (about the Amazon)

about Percy Fawcett, a british army officer who was a member of the english royal geographic society

he was one of the first westerners to believe that the darwinian (though darwin didn't approve of it) fueled western belief that western man was superior to all others, was just plain false. that just because a society may appear primitive or backwards today, does not mean they did not once possess a much higher level of society.

(and what is society as defined by us anyhow? our view of it does not mean that all need to subscribe to the same)

he made several trips into the amazon looking for lost a lost city

the ending notes state that recently, new discoveries in the same area of the amazon he was searching in, road networks and large city grids/layouts have been found

so, of course, i looked that up!

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/lost-amazon-cities/


the movie trailer:

 

Lord Ba'al

Well Known GateFan
I saw that movie. It was rather boring.
 

YJ02

Well Known GateFan
I saw that movie. It was rather boring.

well i guess they could have made it more exciting by putting in native love interests and hot steamy trysts in the amazon with naked indian girls

could have added in some pew pew with some gun fights--cowboy and indian stuff you know

but hings like this often are boring. one reason many ppl didn't watch history channel until they 'sexed it up' with sex, guns and explosions :)
 

Lord Ba'al

Well Known GateFan
well i guess they could have made it more exciting by putting in native love interests and hot steamy trysts in the amazon with naked indian girls

could have added in some pew pew with some gun fights--cowboy and indian stuff you know

but hings like this often are boring. one reason many ppl didn't watch history channel until they 'sexed it up' with sex, guns and explosions :)

Even for what it was it was boring as hell.
 

YJ02

Well Known GateFan
what really is irritating about some ppl who watch historical based things is when they say "I didn't agree with the ending, it should have been different"

:)

the first time I heard that was with 300

now that film was distorted enough as it was, but at least it still got the core of the history down--at the end of the Battle of the Hot Gates, the greeks still lost
 

Lord Ba'al

Well Known GateFan
yes, history IS boring..that's how we end up with shows like VIKINGS

sexed and bloodied up for maximum attn :)

I went into that movie fully expecting a bit of a snorefest, but while watching it I was not captivated. Perhaps the actors or director didn't fully do their job to the best of their abilities or perhaps they did but their best wasn't good enough. There are slower paced or more dramatic movies around which I do like, although I do not know in how far they are based on historical events or not. For example, The Last Emperor, Seven Years in Tibet or Memoires of a Geisha, or even The Last Samurai.
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
what really is irritating about some ppl who watch historical based things is when they say "I didn't agree with the ending, it should have been different"

:)

the first time I heard that was with 300

now that film was distorted enough as it was, but at least it still got the core of the history down--at the end of the Battle of the Hot Gates, the greeks still lost

What bothers me is when people go to movies and think that they are based in historical truth when in reality they are complete falsehoods. Gods of Egypt, Moses, The Story of Jesus, Noah, all are historically, ethnically and factually false movie re-imaginings. Yet people will refer to those movies when arguing historical fact.
 
What bothers me is when people go to movies and think that they are based in historical truth when in reality they are complete falsehoods. Gods of Egypt, Moses, The Story of Jesus, Noah, all are historically, ethnically and factually false movie re-imaginings. Yet people will refer to those movies when arguing historical fact.

This somewhat reminds me of decades ago when a producer for The Avengers, the British show starring Patrick Macnee and Diana Rigg, casually mentioned in an interview that the show was a parody of the Bond spy genre. People lost their minds when hearing this because they actually thought the show was based in truth and/or was a serious drama. They literally didn't get that it was a tongue-in-cheek show. So it's not surprising that people are too stupid to recognize the line between historical fact and Hollywood fiction.

*Btw, I've noticed that historical nonfiction accounts have gotten extremely "stylized" over the last decade or so. Historians have had to become melodramatic story tellers in order to sell books and increase their notoriety. Sometimes it's obvious when they're just making stuff up to fill pages. There's no way they could know the emotional feelings of the historical figures involved or what their lives were exactly like, but that doesn't stop them from fictionalizing certain elements in order to move the story along.
 
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