American Sniper? HUH? Why is this movie successful????

[Overmind One]

Man, I sure wasnt ready for this movie. I just saw it and...just wow, who would think of this dude as a hero? He is what you would get if you took somebody like a more physically fit George Zimmerman over there and armed him to the teeth and gave him a license to kill. This guy LIKES killing. Yes, he is killing the enemy, but that wasnt the issue I have with it. It was that he ENJOYED killing people. So much so, that it was downright disturbing.

I think this movie is playing on the Stand Your Ground/Castle Laws/Open Carry/Private Militia/Survivalist Patriot crowd. It is not a stretch to imagine such a man shooting all those "others" who are trying to take "his" America away. This movie is playing to the lowest denominator of a very low information demographic. I was stunned by the disturbing nature of the film's premise and plot, even if the acting was decent.

After the film, I started looking online and it looks like Chris Kyle was killed recently and celebrities such as Bill Maher are seeing what I just saw. A psychopath let loose on the enemy who loved to kill and kill and kill and kill. Like I said, I was surprised at this movie, and more at the success of the film. Who is cheering this movie and its star character? How can somebody like Chris Kyle ever be considered a hero???

For comparison, what if we just took George Zimmerman, Charles Manson, Adam Lanza et al, and put them in uniform and flew them into Iraq or Afghanistan loaded to the teeth with weapons. NO DOUBT they would rack up the kills very very quickly. But would you consider them heroes? I wouldnt. There is something seriously wrong with anyone who comes to love killing.

This movie is APPALLING. Three thumbs down from me.

 

[Jim of WVa]

Man, I sure wasnt ready for this movie. I just saw it and...just wow, who would think of this dude as a hero? He is what you would get if you took somebody like a more physically fit George Zimmerman over there and armed him to the teeth and gave him a license to kill. This like LIKES killing. Yes, he is killing the enemy, but that wasnt the issue I have with it. It was that he ENJOYED killing people. So much so, that it was downright disturbing.

I think this movie is playing on the Stand Your Ground/Castle Laws/Open Carry/Private Militia/Survivalist Patriot crowd. It is not a stretch to imagine such a man shooting all those "others" who are trying to take "his" America away. This movie is playing to the lowest denominator of a very low information demographic. I was stunned by the disturbing nature of the film's premise and plot, even if the acting was decent.

After the film, I started looking online and it looks like Chris Kyle was killed recently and celebrities such as Bill Maher are seeing what I just saw. A psychopath let loose on the enemy who loved to kill and kill and kill and kill. Like I said, I was surprised at this movie, and more at the success of the film. Who is cheering this movie and its star character? How can somebody like Chris Kyle ever be considered a hero???

For comparison, what if we just took George XZimmerman, Charles Manson, Adam Lanza et al, and put them in uniform and flew them into Iraq or Afghanistan loaded to the teeth with weapons. NO DOUBT they would rack up the kills very very quickly. But would you consider them heroes? I wouldnt. There is something seriously wrong with anyone who comes to love killing.

This movie is APPALLING. Three thumbs down from me.

Snipers have been a legitimate part of the US Army since 1775. Back then, they would climb a tree and knock off any officer they could find.

 

[ecgordon]

I'm sorta on the fence about this one. I don't necessarily think he's a hero, but do acknowledge he was doing the job he was assigned, and doing it better than anyone before him. It would be hard for me to say that he loved the killing itself since it is a movie not a documentary, with an actor, writers and director interpreting things, but I think they did a good job showing how unstable he was outside of that job.

 

[Jim of WVa]

I'm sorta on the fence about this one. I don't necessarily think he's a hero, but do acknowledge he was doing the job he was assigned, and doing it better than anyone before him. It would be hard for me to say that he loved the killing itself since it is a movie not a documentary, with an actor, writers and director interpreting things, but I think they did a good job showing how unstable he was outside of that job.

No, this fellow was the best sniper in history. And most of his kills were made with iron sights:

 

[Overmind One]

Snipers have been a legitimate part of the US Army since 1775. Back then, they would climb a tree and knock off any officer they could find.

They are a mainstay of the armed forces. But they are not psychopaths. They are typically hunters, and the candidates are generally identified during rifle qualification and they are selected and channeled into Recon and special forces for that ability. This dude is just a plain psycho. You have to see the movie to understand why I didnt like it. Im not so sure you would like this movie.

 

[Jim of WVa]

They are a mainstay of the armed forces. But they are not psychopaths. They are typically hunters, and the candidates are generally identified during rifle qualification and they are selected and channeled into Recon and special forces for that ability. This dude is just a plain psycho. You have to see the movie to understand why I didnt like it. Im not so sure you would like this movie.

I have yet to see the movie.

 

[Joelist]

Lest we forget Vasily Zaitsev, who also was a master sniper.

 

[YJ02]

Man, I sure wasnt ready for this movie. I just saw it and...just wow, who would think of this dude as a hero? He is what you would get if you took somebody like a more physically fit George Zimmerman over there and armed him to the teeth and gave him a license to kill. This like LIKES killing. Yes, he is killing the enemy, but that wasnt the issue I have with it. It was that he ENJOYED killing people. So much so, that it was downright disturbing.

I think this movie is playing on the Stand Your Ground/Castle Laws/Open Carry/Private Militia/Survivalist Patriot crowd. It is not a stretch to imagine such a man shooting all those "others" who are trying to take "his" America away. This movie is playing to the lowest denominator of a very low information demographic. I was stunned by the disturbing nature of the film's premise and plot, even if the acting was decent.

After the film, I started looking online and it looks like Chris Kyle was killed recently and celebrities such as Bill Maher are seeing what I just saw. A psychopath let loose on the enemy who loved to kill and kill and kill and kill. Like I said, I was surprised at this movie, and more at the success of the film. Who is cheering this movie and its star character? How can somebody like Chris Kyle ever be considered a hero???

For comparison, what if we just took George XZimmerman, Charles Manson, Adam Lanza et al, and put them in uniform and flew them into Iraq or Afghanistan loaded to the teeth with weapons. NO DOUBT they would rack up the kills very very quickly. But would you consider them heroes? I wouldnt. There is something seriously wrong with anyone who comes to love killing.

This movie is APPALLING. Three thumbs down from me.

From what I have read/scene from others who knew the guy (members of his seal team, etc) this movie is out of synch with the book which in turn is a little out of step with the real man and the events he was involved in

I haven't seen the movie nor read the book, but I would chalk it up to "Hollywood Strikes again" (in distortions and the use/portrayal of the american military to suit its agenda--whatever it currently is)

Of course- this is from the Hollywood which is the Clint EASTWOOD side of Glitzville--he produced/directed the thing apparently so I am sure that if it came down to using a quote in total and if that would damage the image Clint wanted to depict, then those quotes/actions were depicted in a diff way.

Again, from interviews I have seen/read, Kyle is taken out of context and some of his 'sayings' stretched a bit-- for example, his "L ove killing them (iraqi's) wish I could of killed more of them.."

Well, apparently within the book and according to his teammates was that-he 'loved' killing the enemy- those insurgents who were using women and kids to bomb marines in the streets. He wished he could have killed more of them so that he could have been responsible for saving more American and ALLIED (to include Iraqi Govt forces) lives.

I saw other ppl criticising the depiction of him calling his wife from Iraq--literally in the combat zone

well, this may have not been possible in the time in which he was there-especially early on--after about 2006 or so, any soldier or marine could use a commercial cell phone, dial up the military switch board (not your old time TA 312 crank phone switch, but a digital switchboard) and then either acquire a signal to dial home or more likely, the way we did it in 1990; using the phone center (in tents throughout the AO) we would call our home bases' operator via DSN line, then have that operator dial collect our wives. they lived on or near base so it was a local call. The same can be done now with cell's.

Then too, anyone with a laptop can use Skype when ever they want

again,just another criticism I heard on the film.

He was killed by a former Marine. Kyle ran and owned a shooting range in texas that he used for fellow veterans. this marine was a dx ptsd suffere. Since Kyle had a 'legend' about him as a ghost who couldn't be killed, some think this kid shot him so he could claim he made the kill that so many others couldn't

He also,said some stuff about fellow seal Jesse Ventura. Since then, Ventura has felt "threatened", quit his reality show and goes no where without a huge security detail. He also sued Kyle's estate and the court was forced to lay claim to his assets and what little his widow had at the time (before the film)
------------------------------------------

A more accurate movie (despite your objections to Wahlburg) is LONE SURVIVOR, It shows the true story of the SEAL (Marcus Luttrel) who survived a Talib attack, the loss of his team and being captured. It also shows that even SEALS are not indestructible supermen. I do not recall there being any talk in it of "loving to kill" or other such hyped nonsense.

 

[Overmind One]

From what I have read/scene from others who knew the guy (members of his seal team, etc) this movie is out of synch with the book which in turn is a little out of step with the real man and the events he was involved in

I haven't seen the movie nor read the book, but I would chalk it up to "Hollywood Strikes again" (in distortions and the use/portrayal of the american military to suit its agenda--whatever it currently is)

Of course- this is from the Hollywood which is the Clint EASTWOOD side of Glitzville--he produced/directed the thing apparently so I am sure that if it came down to using a quote in total and if that would damage the image Clint wanted to depict, then those quotes/actions were depicted in a diff way.

Again, from interviews I have seen/read, Kyle is taken out of context and some of his 'sayings' stretched a bit-- for example, his "L ove killing them (iraqi's) wish I could of killed more of them.."

Well, apparently within the book and according to his teammates was that-he 'loved' killing the enemy- those insurgents who were using women and kids to bomb marines in the streets. He wished he could have killed more of them so that he could have been responsible for saving more American and ALLIED (to include Iraqi Govt forces) lives.

I saw other ppl criticising the depiction of him calling his wife from Iraq--literally in the combat zone

well, this may have not been possible in the time in which he was there-especially early on--after about 2006 or so, any soldier or marine could use a commercial cell phone, dial up the military switch board (not your old time TA 312 crank phone switch, but a digital switchboard) and then either acquire a signal to dial home or more likely, the way we did it in 1990; using the phone center (in tents throughout the AO) we would call our home bases' operator via DSN line, then have that operator dial collect our wives. they lived on or near base so it was a local call. The same can be done now with cell's.

Then too, anyone with a laptop can use Skype when ever they want

again,just another criticism I heard on the film.

He was killed by a former Marine. Kyle ran and owned a shooting range in texas that he used for fellow veterans. this marine was a dx ptsd suffere. Since Kyle had a 'legend' about him as a ghost who couldn't be killed, some think this kid shot him so he could claim he made the kill that so many others couldn't

He also,said some stuff about fellow seal Jesse Ventura. Since then, Ventura has felt "threatened", quit his reality show and goes no where without a huge security detail. He also sued Kyle's estate and the court was forced to lay claim to his assets and what little his widow had at the time (before the film)
------------------------------------------

A more accurate movie (despite your objections to Wahlburg) is LONE SURVIVOR, It shows the true story of the SEAL (Marcus Luttrel) who survived a Talib attack, the loss of his team and being captured. It also shows that even SEALS are not indestructible supermen. I do not recall there being any talk in it of "loving to kill" or other such hyped nonsense.

Evidently, the book takes the benefit of the doubt away. He did enjoy "killing brown people" according to his own autobiography. The dude was a psychopath. He racked up kills far beyond that of others in his unit. Somebody who loves to kill, enemy or not, is a homicidal maniac.

 

[shavedape]

I haven't read the book nor have I seen the movie so I don't have any comment to make on those things. I do feel that Chris Kyle was incredibly stupid to take someone who had mental problems, caused by battlefield trauma, to a shooting range. Kyle's stupidity was proven today at the trial of his murderer when the defense attorney revealed that shortly before he was shot to death Kyle texted a buddy with the message: "This dude is straight up nuts".

I know every flag-waving Rightwing goose stepper thinks it's unconscionable to criticize Chris Kyle but I've never been one to deny reality. And the reality is that Kyle was willfully stupid to put a firearm into the hands of a man known to be suffering from PTSD. He was doubly stupid to continue on with things at the shooting range when, as proven by his own words, he knew the guy was severely unstable. Anyone with half a brain would have known it was a stupid thing to do. No doubt an arrogant God complex affected Kyle's judgment though and he paid the ultimate price. It was, in essence, suicide by his own stupidity.

And anyone who claims that arrogance wasn't at play here is wrong as evinced by the fact that Kyle and his friend Littlefield exchanged texts on the way to the shooting range expressing alarm over Routh's (their killer's) evident insanity. Yeah, these two guys notice that this guy is clearly a nutjob yet they still choose to put a firearm in his hands. M'kay.

Here's a link to the story:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime...-straight-up-nuts/ar-AA9fdgR?ocid=ansnewsap11

 

[Overmind One]

I haven't read the book nor have I seen the movie so I don't have any comment to make on those things. I do feel that Chris Kyle was incredibly stupid to take someone who had mental problems, caused by battlefield trauma, to a shooting range. Kyle's stupidity was proven today at the trial of his murderer when the defense attorney revealed that shortly before he was shot to death Kyle texted a buddy with the message: "This dude is straight up nuts".

Wasnt there something about birds of a feather? Kyle went from shooting up hundreds of people (joyfully, I might add), to opening up a firing range. Isnt that sorta like being the guy who beheads people then after no longer being able to do that, opens up a butcher shop?

I know every flag-waving Rightwing goose stepper thinks it's unconscionable to criticize Chris Kyle but I've never been one to deny reality. And the reality is that Kyle was willfully stupid to put a firearm into the hands of a man known to be suffering from PTSD. He was doubly stupid to continue on with things at the shooting range when, as proven by his own words, he knew the guy was severely unstable. Anyone with half a brain would have known it was a stupid thing to do. No doubt an arrogant God complex affected Kyle's judgment though and he paid the ultimate price. It was, in essence, suicide by his own stupidity.

You need to see the movie. I had NO IDEA what I was in for when I went to see it, and I thought it might be something like Taken, only with a soldier.. Sorry, but no. It is OBVIOUSLY pandering to the same sort of folks who would see merit in the behaviors of George Zimmerman or Cliven Bundy. People who store their Bible along with their guns. Way far right wing types who might live vicariously through the character portrayed in American Sniper. I had several jaw dropping moments.

And anyone who claims that arrogance wasn't at play here is wrong as evinced by the fact that Kyle and his friend Littlefield exchanged texts on the way to the shooting range expressing alarm over Routh's (their killer's) evident insanity. Yeah, these two guys notice that this guy is clearly a nutjob yet they still choose to put a firearm in his hands. M'kay.

Here's a link to the story:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime...-straight-up-nuts/ar-AA9fdgR?ocid=ansnewsap11

ALL of them were nuts. How did Kyle get legal clearance to open a firing range?

 

[Rac80]

three things:
#1 seen the movie (and read the book) and the movie is well done - well written, well-directed and well-acted (and I don't like bradly cooper as a rule) THAT is why this movie is doing so well. I think most are thrilled to see a good movie so they are reccomending it - so much of what hollywood is currently releasing is drivel, dreck, and straight manure these days. (I also liked Unbroken- directd by angelina jolie - she is an excellent director) The depiction of chris kyle in the movie is exaggerated (of course) and between the book and his compatriots you get the view of a good man, using his talents as he was asked to, who cares about his fellow soldiers and their challenges.
#2 jesse ventura's SEAL status has been questioned. Bill Salisbury, an attorney in San Diego and a former Navy SEAL officer, has accused Ventura of "pretending" to be a SEAL. He wrote that Ventura would be blurring an important distinction by claiming to be a SEAL when he was actually a frogman with the UDT. Compared to SEAL teams, UDTs saw less combat and took fewer casualties.[13][115]

Salisbury described Ventura's Navy training thus:

{Ventura} took a screening test at boot camp to qualify for...Basic Underwater Demolition/seal (buds/s) training...Those who completed bud/s, when [Ventura] was in training, were sent to either a seal or an underwater demolition team. Graduation did not, however, authorize the trainee to call himself a seal or a udt frogman. He had to first successfully complete a six-month probationary period in the Teams.[116]

Although Ventura underwent UDT training, he never attempted the additional 26-week SEAL Qualification Training. On completion of his BUD/S training, Ventura was assigned to a UDT team. In 1983, eight years after Ventura left the Navy, the UDTs were disbanded and those operators were retrained and retasked as SEALs.[115]

Some argue that since Ventura's BUD/S training was common to UDTs and SEALs, and the work of UDTs and SEALs was similar, he is entitled to call himself a SEAL in all but name, but others disagree and hold the view expressed by Salisbury.

besides Ventura is nuts-he's definitely a wacko full of conspiracy theories (they have meds for that)
#3 there is debate about whether or not the man who killed Chris Kyle ever saw combat: Through the Freedom of Information Act, The Warfighter Foundation received Routh’s wartime record and made a startling discovery – Routh was never in combat or in any sort of traumatic experience.

Posted to their Facebook page, they write:

Eddie Routh served one tour in Iraq in 2007, at Balad Air Base (the 2nd largest U.S. installation in Iraq), with no significant events. No combat experience. Let me say that again, he NEVER SAW COMBAT or any aspect of traumatic events associated with a combat deployment (i.e. incoming mortar or rocket fire). He never left the base, EVER.

He held a non-combat arms occupation of 2111 (Small Arms Repairer/ Technician or more commonly referred to as an Armorer). Balad Air Base had a Pizza Hut, 24 hour Buger King, Subway, Popeye's, Baskin Robbins, movie theater, and even a miniature golf course. It even had a strictly enforced 10-mile per hour speed limit! What a dangerous place...

His tour was comparable to being on a base in southern California, only with MANY more luxuries that were catered to the morale and welfare of the troops who occupied it. He was known to be a drug user and a below average performer while in the Marine Corps.

This has NOTHING to do with PTSD. He was an individual with psychological problems that were not associated with his service. So don't give me that bleeding heart bullshit that he was a veteran suffering from PTSD.

 

[Joelist]

It might be informative for someone to read the book and try to source the remarks attributed to him. I mention this because there is a long history out there of selectively quoting pieces of what someone says to create an impression of them.

In Kyle's case all I was able to dredge up (I don't have the book) online were:

- Supposed remark saying all Iraquis were "savages" was snipped out of context. Full quote shows he was referring to those they were fighting and also details their behavior.

- It seems the "brown people" remark was not made by Kyle at all, but rather by the author of an article in The Guardian which is being lambasted for using out of context quotes.

Just saying, as we all have been demonized before (remember GateWorld and also some of the old issues at SGU sucks) let's be careful lest we inadvertently do the same to someone else.

 

[Overmind One]

It might be informative for someone to read the book and try to source the remarks attributed to him. I mention this because there is a long history out there of selectively quoting pieces of what someone says to create an impression of them.

In Kyle's case all I was able to dredge up (I don't have the book) online were:

- Supposed remark saying all Iraquis were "savages" was snipped out of context. Full quote shows he was referring to those they were fighting and also details their behavior.

- It seems the "brown people" remark was not made by Kyle at all, but rather by the author of an article in The Guardian which is being lambasted for using out of context quotes.

Just saying, as we all have been demonized before (remember GateWorld and also some of the old issues at SGU sucks) let's be careful lest we inadvertently do the same to someone else.

Im going to admit I have not read the book. But I have read the Wiki on Kyle and I am looking at his life-path, and I see a redneck, gun-totin dude who likes to shoot stuff.


He is from a part of Texas which is notoriously racist (Odessa): http://ravenseniors.wikispaces.com/P2+How+does+the+impact+of+racism+affect+Odessa?
He has no formal education, and has been shooting guns since age 8. He is almost a cliche representative of "racist redneck", right down to driving a Ford F150 pickup down dusty west Texas roads. I think we are being more than fair when it comes to this guy. He went over to Iraq to kill people. He wanted to be a Marine but was rejected because of the pins in his arm. The Army took him, and his assignment which he accepted with joy was to kill as many "savages" as possible. He has 150 confirmed kills and more than 250 unconfirmed.

I am not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and I see him as a psychopath given a legal outlet to mass murder. And the movie did absolutely nothing for me except make me feel a bit nauseated. Incidentally, I saw this with a friend in a theater and even though I bought popcorn, it went basically uneaten. This is not entertainment.

 

[Joelist]

For all I know Kyle could indeed be a Manson clone. But having seen the internet demonization machine at work I hesitate to form any opinion on him. Had I not dug a little deeper in several cases I can think of I would have had incorrect views (I actually read Sarbanes-Oxley and have read large sections of the ACA for example). Also it was "doing the homework" that informed me that stuff posted about one of our own in the predecessor forum to this one was false.

It's just how my brain works - if something has sufficient impact on me to get me engaged I start rooting up source documents and the like...

 

[Overmind One]

Rac can disagree all she wants. but Chris Kyle is no hero. He was a redneck from Texas who was given a license to kill, and he did exactly that to more than 150 people. The movie was hard to watch, and I recommend seeing it only if you have nothing else to do.

 

[Overmind One]

http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/09/18...he-lack-of-black-officers-in-combat-commands/

Interesting, but what do those posts have to do with American Sniper or Chris Kyle?

 

[Overmind One]

http://www.amren.com/news/2009/11/diversity_in_th_3/

Same comment...what does your response hace to do with Chris Kyle or American Sniper?

The Wiki for Chris Kyle is that of a redneck from Texas.

"Kyle was born in Odessa, Texas, the son of Deby Lynn (née Mercer) and Wayne Kenneth Kyle, a Sunday school teacher and a deacon.[3][9] Kyle's father bought his son his first rifle at eight years old, a bolt-action .30-06 Springfield rifle, and later a shotgun, with which they hunted pheasant, quail, and deer.[3] Kyle attended high school in Midlothian, Texas, where he played football and baseball.[10] After school, Kyle became a professional bronco rodeo rider" = REDNECK

Furthermore, his upbringing was stereotypically far right wing Christian coupled with gun culture. He is a Tea Party dream and a far right wing sex symbol.

 

[Overmind One]

Rednecks like Chris Kyle make effective soldiers.

Not sure why you are including all that unrelated stuff in this thread, but as far as Chris Kyle rednecking in Iraq, it would not surprise me if Charles Manson, Adam Lanza, George Zimmerman, Timothy McVeigh and just about every serial killer on death row would make EXCELLENT soldiers in today's Army. Killing people for sport is just not something normal people do. I am a veteran. But I would not enjoy killing even though I would do it in the service of the country. The standards of today's Army (not the Marines, who rejected Kyle) have been lowered significantly to allow unstable people like Chris Kyle to enter easily.

Please try to stay on topic. None of the content of your last three posts belongs in this thread. The Republic of the Congo has nothing to do with America, the American Sniper movie, Iraq, Chris Kyle or rednecks with rifles.

 

[Joelist]

Here we go again......