Legendary Films is making Dune again

[Joelist]

Yes, we're going to get the third attempt (the first two being the David Lynch disaster and the SyFy miniseries) to bring Dune to the screen:

http://variety.com/2016/film/news/legendary-dune-frank-herbert-1201923648/

So, can it be done properly? I hope so.

I think that to get this to work Legendary may need to consider splitting it into two films (it actually has a fairly natural split line when the Harkonnens use a traitor to destroy (or so they think) House Atreides) because there is just too much plot for a single film.

Beyond that basic decision, here are some things I think they need to do for this rendition to work properly:

One, stay away from weird costumes and baroque sets. Both Lynch's film and the SyFy miniseries committed these sins, and as a result looked so weird they took you right out of the story.

Two, no changing major plot elements. In this arena the SyFy mini did decently while Lynch's film was horrendous. This means that - yes - the main weapons for combat need to be edged weapons because of the whole Lasegun-Shield interaction issue (which needs to be shown). Also depict the Voice accurately as well as the Bene Gesserit and such.

Three, show fidelity to the characters as depicted in the book. For example, both SyFy and Lynch overdid the Harkonnens to the point they bordered on the comical. Especially Lynch here - the Baron, Feyd and Rabban all come across as psychotic idiots. In the book the characters were far more subtle.

Legendary has a real opportunity here, as Dune is a rich universe and has never been shown properly on the screen.

 

[Overmind One]

Yes, we're going to get the third attempt (the first two being the David Lynch disaster and the SyFy miniseries) to bring Dune to the screen:

http://variety.com/2016/film/news/legendary-dune-frank-herbert-1201923648/

So, can it be done properly? I hope so.

Dune is one of the books I actually never got around to reading, because I had seen the Lynch film. When I first watched it, I liked it because of the story it was telling. The whole royal thing with all of the ornate architecture and haughty demeanor of the Emperor and the Reverend Mother was ridiculous. And the Spacing Guild Navigators were laughable.

I think that to get this to work Legendary may need to consider splitting it into two films (it actually has a fairly natural split line when the Harkonnens use a traitor to destroy (or so they think) House Atreides) because there is just too much plot for a single film.

That is where I think Syfy's version outdid Lynch's movie. The characters were better fleshed out too. I liked the worms of Lynch's movie much better than the Syfy version. I also liked the sonic weapons of Lynch's movie.

Beyond that basic decision, here are some things I think they need to do for this rendition to work properly:

One, stay away from weird costumes and baroque sets. Both Lynch's film and the SyFy miniseries committed these sins, and as a result looked so weird they took you right out of the story.

Two, no changing major plot elements. In this arena the SyFy mini did decently while Lynch's film was horrendous. This means that - yes - the main weapons for combat need to be edged weapons because of the whole Lasegun-Shield interaction issue (which needs to be shown). Also depict the Voice accurately as well as the Bene Gesserit and such.

Three, show fidelity to the characters as depicted in the book. For example, both SyFy and Lynch overdid the Harkonnens to the point they bordered on the comical. Especially Lynch here - the Baron, Feyd and Rabban all come across as psychotic idiots. In the book the characters were far more subtle.

Legendary has a real opportunity here, as Dune is a rich universe and has never been shown properly on the screen.

I think it's finally time to read the book, with an objective eye.

 

[Joelist]

I think once you do you'll see why Lynch's film is so reviled among the Dune community. Lynch got the atmosphere wrong, the characters wrong (like I said he made the Harkonnens into cartoon characters) and played a lot with the story.

The sound weapon for example really ticks people off because Lynch's "weirding module" (the weapon) is in the books the "weirding way". The weirding way was the unique approach to unarmed combat developed by the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood based on their lifelong training for extreme control of nerves and muscles.

Dune was unique in part because Herbert deliberately created a universe where "pew pew" was impossible. This was the result of personal and larger Shields which deflected projectiles and blades moving too fast, and if they interacted with directed energy weapons (like lasers) the result was a runaway fusion reaction and a nuclear explosion.

 

[Tripler]

" Fear " "Fear is the mind killer"
I always said that jokingly to my pit crew before I got into the car before a race ,,,

 

[Joelist]

It will be interesting to hear from OM after he reads Dune (only the first book is necessary for now).

 

[Lord Ba'al]

Yes! Good stuff. I like Dune. Not so much the movie but the mini-series was cool. Will watch this when it arrives.

 

[Overmind One]

Yes! Good stuff. I like Dune. Not so much the movie but the mini-series was cool. Will watch this when it arrives.

The miniseries was awesome. Much better done than the Lynch movie which was directed like a stage play.

 

[Overmind One]

It will be interesting to hear from OM after he reads Dune (only the first book is necessary for now).

Hmmm....I wish I had never read Dune. It has ruined my perception of Herbert's Dune miniseries AND the Lynch movie version. Fortunately, I made it only a third of the way before closing the cover. I have my reasons for disliking it, but most of all it is because it presents such a dystopian, completely retrograde society for humans 10,000 years from now.

 

[Overmind One]

I think once you do you'll see why Lynch's film is so reviled among the Dune community. Lynch got the atmosphere wrong, the characters wrong (like I said he made the Harkonnens into cartoon characters) and played a lot with the story.

The sound weapon for example really ticks people off because Lynch's "weirding module" (the weapon) is in the books the "weirding way". The weirding way was the unique approach to unarmed combat developed by the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood based on their lifelong training for extreme control of nerves and muscles.

Dune was unique in part because Herbert deliberately created a universe where "pew pew" was impossible. This was the result of personal and larger Shields which deflected projectiles and blades moving too fast, and if they interacted with directed energy weapons (like lasers) the result was a runaway fusion reaction and a nuclear explosion.

This area is where I had issues. Why would the Weirding Way be necessary in a universe where there are barrier shields, drone seeker-hunters and personal shields? Why are there "ornithopters" in it when they had flying lamps and flying chairs for the obese? Why is there a royal family, and Emperor, a Princess and "Houses" of the Lansraad? Why are the subjects of these houses so dedicated to their rulers? What magic is being used by the Bene Gesserit with the Voice and telepathic spying? Why were they being allowed to manipulate bloodlines and arrange marriages? The book makes things even more backwards and retrograde than the Lynch movie did.

The Butlerian Jihad which eliminated all robots and computers...why the hell would that EVER happen? What I discovered about Dune is that it is just another common Knight in Shining Armor story full of palace intrigue, royal scandal and betrayal, and a bunch of long drawn out dialogues between wooden characters. Outside of those who might love a Game of Thrones type world, why would anyone like this story? And NO, THIS IS NOT SCIENCE FICTION. It is sci-fantasy.

I am no longer a fan.

 

[PussyGalore]

" Fear " "Fear is the mind killer"
I always said that jokingly to my pit crew before I got into the car before a race ,,,

“He who controls the spice controls the universe.”

 

[Joelist]

Hi!

You stopped reading too soon or you would already have the answers to your questions.

The Butlerian Jihad came about after humanity had become first too dependent on and then slaves to technology. The war results in the destruction of and prohibition against computational technology (as codified in the commandment "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind"). In the void left by this removal of computing machines come substitutes such as Mentats (humans trained from birth and assisted by various medicines to in essence be human computers to the point where by the time of the first Dune book the better Mentats can outperform the computers from the time of the Jihad) and also there exists outside the Imperium the Ixian Cionfederacy where machine development is occurring.

As to the Bene Gesserit, what they do is not magic. A lot of their abilities flow from the Melange drug (the spice) found on Arrakis. Their breeding program is secret, and the basic reason Paul knows of it is because he as the end product of the program knows all about it (from consulting the memories of Bene Gesserit's which he can access). They are extremely well trained as well, and the basic physics of the weapons of the time basically mean hand to hand and blade combat are at the forefront. This is because the shields would stop a projectile or missile and if they intersect with an energy weapon the result is explosive to say the least.

This actually is not a Game of Thrones situation nor is Paul a knight in shining armor. The book is in essence the story of not only his ascent to power but his unsuccessful attempt to prevent the Dune natives from sparking off a massive jihad that engulfs the entire Imperium. Succeeding books finish his artc and tell the story of his son (Leto II) who works at great personal cost to undo the Bene Gesserit breeding program because it has exposed humanity to the risk of extinction.

And by the way, ultimately the Butlerian prohibitions eventually go away - the books cover a period of roughly 5000 years.

 

[PussyGalore]

This area is where I had issues. Why would the Weirding Way be necessary in a universe where there are barrier shields, drone seeker-hunters and personal shields? Why are there "ornithopters" in it when they had flying lamps and flying chairs for the obese? Why is there a royal family, and Emperor, a Princess and "Houses" of the Lansraad? Why are the subjects of these houses so dedicated to their rulers? What magic is being used by the Bene Gesserit with the Voice and telepathic spying? Why were they being allowed to manipulate bloodlines and arrange marriages? The book makes things even more backwards and retrograde than the Lynch movie did.

The Butlerian Jihad which eliminated all robots and computers...why the hell would that EVER happen? What I discovered about Dune is that it is just another common Knight in Shining Armor story full of palace intrigue, royal scandal and betrayal, and a bunch of long drawn out dialogues between wooden characters. Outside of those who might love a Game of Thrones type world, why would anyone like this story? And NO, THIS IS NOT SCIENCE FICTION. It is sci-fantasy.

I am no longer a fan.

I don't remember much about reading Dune (because I did it eleventy billion years ago) but your assessment reminded me of when I read Imajica by Clive Barker. It's a huge novel that is so big they eventually broke it into two shorter novels. I of course read it when it was still a chunky tome. At any rate, what struck me about the book was that I got the impression Barker was just pounding out the story without much attention to plot after awhile. He had created this insane universe of characters and worlds yet when I neared the end I was like wtf was that about?

Like Herbert with Dune, Barker created this enormous universe replete with various cultures and societal structures but in the end it amounts to nothing more than court intrigue in an alt universe. That's fine if one is into that but I was kind of hoping for something more satisfying.

*Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing Clive Barker. The book was a fascinating read, almost like an acid trip I would imagine. It was very interesting in parts and also very very very weird in other parts. ("Pie'oh'pah" still has me scratching my head after all these years.) I don't regret reading it but at the same time I'm not sure what value or insight it left me with.

 

[Overmind One]

Hi!

You stopped reading too soon or you would already have the answers to your questions.

The Butlerian Jihad came about after humanity had become first too dependent on and then slaves to technology. The war results in the destruction of and prohibition against computational technology (as codified in the commandment "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind"). In the void left by this removal of computing machines come substitutes such as Mentats (humans trained from birth and assisted by various medicines to in essence be human computers to the point where by the time of the first Dune book the better Mentats can outperform the computers from the time of the Jihad) and also there exists outside the Imperium the Ixian Cionfederacy where machine development is occurring.

Remember, this reading of Dune has come after I have watched and rewatched both the Lynch film and the Syfy miniseries multiple times. This was a shock to me how much the book differs from the movie. No heart plugs for Harkonnen, no weirding modules, no telepathy for Bene Gessurit (nor were they necessarily bald), the Sardukar and Fremen suits both had head coverings. Also, overall, it just is not very well written as books go...scifi or otherwise.

As to the Bene Gesserit, what they do is not magic. A lot of their abilities flow from the Melange drug (the spice) found on Arrakis. Their breeding program is secret, and the basic reason Paul knows of it is because he as the end product of the program knows all about it (from consulting the memories of Bene Gesserit's which he can access). They are extremely well trained as well, and the basic physics of the weapons of the time basically mean hand to hand and blade combat are at the forefront. This is because the shields would stop a projectile or missile and if they intersect with an energy weapon the result is explosive to say the least.

I understand this, but to me it is kinda stupid. Why would any advanced society allow a sisterhood like the Bene Gessurit to exist, running breeding programs and infusing themselves into Imperial government? Paul himself is basically a prince (Dukal heir, whatever). He is royalty. Why would royalty exist 10,000 years from now? I don't think it will even last beyond the 21st century. Why is there a Duke, and why does a royal family control all the planets in the Known Universe? All this is stuff from feudal times on earth. Castles, knights and battles. Only different.

This actually is not a Game of Thrones situation nor is Paul a knight in shining armor. The book is in essence the story of not only his ascent to power but his unsuccessful attempt to prevent the Dune natives from sparking off a massive jihad that engulfs the entire Imperium. Succeeding books finish his artc and tell the story of his son (Leto II) who works at great personal cost to undo the Bene Gesserit breeding program because it has exposed humanity to the risk of extinction.

And by the way, ultimately the Butlerian prohibitions eventually go away - the books cover a period of roughly 5000 years.

Okay, but a jihad differs from a revolution or a civil war only in it's religious component. And religion is big in this story. Dune has been around long enough for every excuse to be made for it's flaws, and every negative comment on this has been rebuffed. There are already legions of fans who love this story. I used to be one of them, and now I no longer am. I can live with that!

 

[Overmind One]

I don't remember much about reading Dune (because I did it eleventy billion years ago) but your assessment reminded me of when I read Imajica by Clive Barker. It's a huge novel that is so big they eventually broke it into two shorter novels. I of course read it when it was still a chunky tome. At any rate, what struck me about the book was that I got the impression Barker was just pounding out the story without much attention to plot after awhile. He had created this insane universe of characters and worlds yet when I neared the end I was like wtf was that about?

Like Herbert with Dune, Barker created this enormous universe replete with various cultures and societal structures but in the end it amounts to nothing more than court intrigue in an alt universe. That's fine if one is into that but I was kind of hoping for something more satisfying.

*Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing Clive Barker. The book was a fascinating read, almost like an acid trip I would imagine. It was very interesting in parts and also very very very weird in other parts. ("Pie'oh'pah" still has me scratching my head after all these years.) I don't regret reading it but at the same time I'm not sure what value or insight it left me with.

As books go, this is poorly written. Compared with say...Asimov or Bradbury, this is not on their level at all. And it is too long. There is LOTS of pointless dialogue between the characters, and not enough about the characters themselves. If the book was better written, I might be able to get past the first 1/3 of it. It is so much different from the movie version that they are no longer the same story. Like the Planet of the Apes book is NOTHING like the movie version which I liked much better.

 

[Overmind One]

Hi!

You stopped reading too soon or you would already have the answers to your questions.

The Butlerian Jihad came about after humanity had become first too dependent on and then slaves to technology. The war results in the destruction of and prohibition against computational technology (as codified in the commandment "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind"). In the void left by this removal of computing machines come substitutes such as Mentats (humans trained from birth and assisted by various medicines to in essence be human computers to the point where by the time of the first Dune book the better Mentats can outperform the computers from the time of the Jihad) and also there exists outside the Imperium the Ixian Cionfederacy where machine development is occurring.

How do you get a starship to fly without computers? There are myriad flow regulators, scanners, weapons, etc. that would need computers to control them. A mentat or an army of them would not be able to do all of that. What about databases? How are records kept? I can't suspend belief enough to accept the Butlerian Jihad and move on to the rest of the story.

As to the Bene Gesserit, what they do is not magic. A lot of their abilities flow from the Melange drug (the spice) found on Arrakis. Their breeding program is secret, and the basic reason Paul knows of it is because he as the end product of the program knows all about it (from consulting the memories of Bene Gesserit's which he can access). They are extremely well trained as well, and the basic physics of the weapons of the time basically mean hand to hand and blade combat are at the forefront. This is because the shields would stop a projectile or missile and if they intersect with an energy weapon the result is explosive to say the least.

How does the shield move with the body if it does not have a computer control module? Why should I accept these shields but also accept that the only weapons are blades (swords) and fists? It's messy and gives me a headache trying to figure out why this universe is set up the way it is. How does the Spacing Guild fold space without computers?

This actually is not a Game of Thrones situation nor is Paul a knight in shining armor. The book is in essence the story of not only his ascent to power but his unsuccessful attempt to prevent the Dune natives from sparking off a massive jihad that engulfs the entire Imperium. Succeeding books finish his artc and tell the story of his son (Leto II) who works at great personal cost to undo the Bene Gesserit breeding program because it has exposed humanity to the risk of extinction.

And by the way, ultimately the Butlerian prohibitions eventually go away - the books cover a period of roughly 5000 years.

I wish I had never started reading the book. I will not finish it or read any of the others. That way, I won't be compelled to delete the movie and miniseries from my collection.

 

[Lord Ba'al]

Because giant space worms!

 

[Overmind One]

Because giant space worms!

Ya know, I did like the miniseries much better than the Lynch movie which was the only Dune I knew. And reading what I did of the book, it seems to follow the book more closely than the Lynch movie. I also loved The Children of Dune miniseries. Its just the Dune book which I don't like. But I also don't like the Planet of the Apes book by Boulle for almost the same reasons. So, the Dune story is still interesting to me and remains in my collection. I just will not be reading the books.

 

[PussyGalore]

As books go, this is poorly written. Compared with say...Asimov or Bradbury, this is not on their level at all. And it is too long. There is LOTS of pointless dialogue between the characters, and not enough about the characters themselves. If the book was better written, I might be able to get past the first 1/3 of it. It is so much different from the movie version that they are no longer the same story. Like the Planet of the Apes book is NOTHING like the movie version which I liked much better.

I admit that I don't remember much about reading the book other than that I had a hard time getting into it. I'm pretty sure the exposition and patois turned me off, as can happen with fantasy worlds such as this. The reason I'm confused on it is because I know I read it at a time in my life when I (foolishly) never gave up on a book. I always read through to the end. I value my time more now and am ruthless when it comes to dropping books that don't reel me in quickly. But I guess there's a chance that I simply gave up on Dune and don't remember it.

I've tried to watch the Lynch movie several times but I can only get a few minutes into it before turning it off. And I never bothered with the miniseries. I guess the story just doesn't do it for me.

 

[Lord Ba'al]

The mini series gets my vote.

 

[Joelist]

Hi OM!

It's cool if you don't like it. Dune is an acquired taste sort of. It is definitely going to feel off if your "future view" is more Star Trek (or Larry Niven) oriented. Herbert and writers like Poul Anderson were not so much into the technology of things as the psychology and sociology.

I like the earlier Dune books in part because in High School I had to do papers on them.

For a different take on the future, have you ever read Larry Niven? I recommend books like Tales of Known Space (which was the inspiration the Expanse authors used in crafting their world), Protector and Ringworld.