Sons Of Anarchy

[OMNI]

Which characters treated "their" women like shit?



Not a far leap from "Skinner" to "Skinhead".

dude dont even bother, nobhead is obviouisly biast same as overmind.

 

[Bluce Ree]

dude dont even bother, nobhead is obviouisly biast same as overmind.

I have to give him credit for at least trying to watch it in sequence from the pilot. He hasn't given up yet.


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[YJ02]

Which characters treated "their" women like shit?



Not a far leap from "Skinner" to "Skinhead".

IMO, Jax having sex with several women while his wife/ex wife is in the hospital with their newborn, is treating women like shit

Also, the dirtbag who makes comments like "throat pumping wetbacks" (the 2 burned women in ep 1) then being all upstanding while wanting to hunt down a rapist is pretty hypocritical

Clay and others believing it is ok to have sex with other biker whores just because they are out of area and away from their wives. "Happens on a run, stays on a run" comment was pathetically cliche

Don't you think that much of the interaction between characters is also quite cliche? I would have to list nearly every scene to give examples--esp in the first couple eps--maybe it can be given to the show being new at the time?

I am guessing though that this is the intent-to show "complex" characters that lead conflicted lives

I am with OM1 on this show though--these ppl have nothing good to relate at all, they live an archaic lifestyle-whether they are outlaws or not. Politically/socially-they are the kind of "libertarians" that give real libertarians a bad name. The gang shown in SOA is little more then a white militia. It is modern day tribalism.

BB and THE SHIELD-The main characters did wrong to do-in their view-what was good for their families, I don't see that here. There is no cause given for why the viewer should feel empathy or understanding for the character.

I will probably continue to watch it, mainly because it is ball freezing cold out and I don't like to give up on watching shows or movies that I have started

It is quite a downfall, IMO, from the TPTB's previous work in THE SHIELD--did you ever watch that?

 

[Overmind One]

IMO, Jax having sex with several women while his wife/ex wife is in the hospital with their newborn, is treating women like shit

Also, the dirtbag who makes comments like "throat pumping wetbacks" (the 2 burned women in ep 1) then being all upstanding while wanting to hunt down a rapist is pretty hypocritical

Clay and others believing it is ok to have sex with other biker whores just because they are out of area and away from their wives. "Happens on a run, stays on a run" comment was pathetically cliche

Don't you think that much of the interaction between characters is also quite cliche? I would have to list nearly every scene to give examples--esp in the first couple eps--maybe it can be given to the show being new at the time?

I am guessing though that this is the intent-to show "complex" characters that lead conflicted lives

I am with OM1 on this show though--these ppl have nothing good to relate at all, they live an archaic lifestyle-whether they are outlaws or not. Politically/socially-they are the kind of "libertarians" that give real libertarians a bad name. The gang shown in SOA is little more then a white militia. It is modern day tribalism.

BB and THE SHIELD-The main characters did wrong to do-in their view-what was good for their families, I don't see that here. There is no cause given for why the viewer should feel empathy or understanding for the character.

I will probably continue to watch it, mainly because it is ball freezing cold out and I don't like to give up on watching shows or movies that I have started

It is quite a downfall, IMO, from the TPTB's previous work in THE SHIELD--did you ever watch that?

I liked The Shield a lot. It wasnt nearly as in the gutter as SoA, and the characters seemed more balanced overall. And I must say, I am quite pleasantly surprised you summarized the show in this way:

these ppl have nothing good to relate at all, they live an archaic lifestyle-whether they are outlaws or not. Politically/socially-they are the kind of "libertarians" that give real libertarians a bad name. The gang shown in SOA is little more then a white militia. It is modern day tribalism.

. I dont find the lifestyle of bikers or ex-cons or gang-like interpersonal relationships interesting. I do not find prison or jails or criminals interesting. It is why I dont like mob shows or gang shows or drug shows or any show which makes somebody evil/bad/perverted the protagonist/hero of the show. Anything "seedy". My first rejection of a film/show based in this belief was Pretty Baby (1978) with Brooke Shields. The movie was about a 12-year old prostitute in New Orleans, who lived in a brothel and lost her virginity to a drunk. Pedophilia, prostitution, and rape...all in one film! . Not my cuppa.

 

[Bluce Ree]

IMO, Jax having sex with several women while his wife/ex wife is in the hospital with their newborn, is treating women like shit

Also, the dirtbag who makes comments like "throat pumping wetbacks" (the 2 burned women in ep 1) then being all upstanding while wanting to hunt down a rapist is pretty hypocritical

Clay and others believing it is ok to have sex with other biker whores just because they are out of area and away from their wives. "Happens on a run, stays on a run" comment was pathetically cliche

Don't you think that much of the interaction between characters is also quite cliche? I would have to list nearly every scene to give examples--esp in the first couple eps--maybe it can be given to the show being new at the time?

I am guessing though that this is the intent-to show "complex" characters that lead conflicted lives

I am with OM1 on this show though--these ppl have nothing good to relate at all, they live an archaic lifestyle-whether they are outlaws or not. Politically/socially-they are the kind of "libertarians" that give real libertarians a bad name. The gang shown in SOA is little more then a white militia. It is modern day tribalism.

BB and THE SHIELD-The main characters did wrong to do-in their view-what was good for their families, I don't see that here. There is no cause given for why the viewer should feel empathy or understanding for the character.

I will probably continue to watch it, mainly because it is ball freezing cold out and I don't like to give up on watching shows or movies that I have started

It is quite a downfall, IMO, from the TPTB's previous work in THE SHIELD--did you ever watch that?

I watched the entire series of The Shield. It is one of my all-time favorite shows.

What you're referring to, when you say they treat their women like shit, is that they cheat on them. You're talking in an abstract sense rather than in a direct sense. They treat their women with respect but have their fun on the side. I get what you're saying but, keep in mind, these guys are criminals. This show isn't that far off in premise from The Sopranos.

The enterprises in which they partake is for the good of their club and their "families", both of which are mutually inclusive.

The show is about an MC participating in organized crime and the protagonist's struggle with realizing his father's vision of bringing the club into legitimacy. The show focuses a lot on family, loyalty and the eternal conflict between right and wrong.

Again, it's basically a show about an organized crime family. It's not about a crooked cop with "good" intentions (I put the word "good" in quotes purposely because Mackey has done a lot of nasty shit and not always in good faith, like the money train storyline). Mackey has also cheated on his wife plenty of times before they split and these guys were no stranger to prostitutes.

Mackey was a sociopathic enforcer. He had no problem burning someone's face on a red-hot stove top to get some mundane information, which he did, or kill someone that got in his way, which was the very first thing he did in the pilot when he killed Terry Crowley, a member of his team, for informing on them.

The only difference between the Strike Team and Samcro is that the former carry badges. Mackey's team was no more moral or noble than Samcro except that Samcro has a sense of family about their club.

I love both these shows for what they are, which happen to take place in the same universe. Saying you despise SOA for essentially the same reasons you love The Shield is a bit puzzling.

 

[YJ02]

I watched the entire series of The Shield. It is one of my all-time favorite shows.

What you're referring to, when you say they treat their women like shit, is that they cheat on them. You're talking in an abstract sense rather than in a direct sense. They treat their women with respect but have their fun on the side. I get what you're saying but, keep in mind, these guys are criminals. This show isn't that far off in premise from The Sopranos.

The enterprises in which they partake is for the good of their club and their "families", both of which are mutually inclusive.

The show is about an MC participating in organized crime and the protagonist's struggle with realizing his father's vision of bringing the club into legitimacy. The show focuses a lot on family, loyalty and the eternal conflict between right and wrong.

Again, it's basically a show about an organized crime family. It's not about a crooked cop with "good" intentions (I put the word "good" in quotes purposely because Mackey has done a lot of nasty shit and not always in good faith, like the money train storyline). Mackey has also cheated on his wife plenty of times before they split and these guys were no stranger to prostitutes.

Mackey was a sociopathic enforcer. He had no problem burning someone's face on a red-hot stove top to get some mundane information, which he did, or kill someone that got in his way, which was the very first thing he did in the pilot when he killed Terry Crowley, a member of his team, for informing on them.

The only difference between the Strike Team and Samcro is that the former carry badges. Mackey's team was no more moral or noble than Samcro except that Samcro has a sense of family about their club.

I love both these shows for what they are, which happen to take place in the same universe. Saying you despise SOA for essentially the same reasons you love The Shield is a bit puzzling.

Yeah I know the SOA dudes are criminals, what I mean is they have no boundaries. In SHIELD at least they were cops and had authority to act-often times in gray area and others just criminal. What I don't like in SOA is that they THINK they are the town cops, that they can somehow do a better job-which they may-but they have no legal authority. The strike team knew they had to act within limits or be found out-the SOA guys just do whatever the f they want without considerations-like stealing an ambulance in broad daylight

It is just too campy and cliche. Ep I just watched is when they need to pay of the Irish 200k for the AK's. Gemma goes to the "porn queen" to ask for cash--their entire conversation is just straight out expected and cliche "I took 2 dicks in the ass for yrs to get my director's chair, I don't owe anything to the Club" "Without the club and Otto you would have never got those dicks out of your ass"

Some of the idea's/writing is just lame-like in the ep when Jax and Tig go to the hospital looking for a way to get to the skeletons dug up (2 mayans and Lowell Sr)--It is a small town right? So why show Jax and Tig walking in the hospital-supposedly incognito by only removing their club vests? Everyone in town knows who they are, whats the point of showing this? 2 greasy haired hop abouts, wanna be badasses are not going to "blend in" with hospital staff-some stuff is just laughable-like when they have "Peg Bundy" Gemma give threats.

Seems like a part of the creative team from SHIELD is not on this show's team or they are putting in half an effort

One short thought on how I see the 2 being different. In SHIELD we see the Strike team and other cops going about cases and shenanigans. During these, we see brief glimpses of gang life with the los mags and 19'rs. In SOA its as if they are making a show one sided only about one of those gangs-there just are not enough dimensions to the story--even when you take away the immorality of their actions, the story is just kind of shallow. But I'll give it a chance to see if it gets better.

I didn't say I despise it-just don't see it having the same entertainment value like what I came to expect from the TPTB's given SHIELD's quality.

 

[YJ02]

I liked The Shield a lot. It wasnt nearly as in the gutter as SoA, and the characters seemed more balanced overall. And I must say, I am quite pleasantly surprised you summarized the show in this way:



.

Well Hubba Hubba!!!

 

[YJ02]

I watched the entire series of The Shield. It is one of my all-time favorite shows.

What you're referring to, when you say they treat their women like shit, is that they cheat on them. You're talking in an abstract sense rather than in a direct sense. They treat their women with respect but have their fun on the side. I get what you're saying but, keep in mind, these guys are criminals. This show isn't that far off in premise from The Sopranos.

The enterprises in which they partake is for the good of their club and their "families", both of which are mutually inclusive.

The show is about an MC participating in organized crime and the protagonist's struggle with realizing his father's vision of bringing the club into legitimacy. The show focuses a lot on family, loyalty and the eternal conflict between right and wrong.

Again, it's basically a show about an organized crime family. It's not about a crooked cop with "good" intentions (I put the word "good" in quotes purposely because Mackey has done a lot of nasty shit and not always in good faith, like the money train storyline). Mackey has also cheated on his wife plenty of times before they split and these guys were no stranger to prostitutes.

Mackey was a sociopathic enforcer. He had no problem burning someone's face on a red-hot stove top to get some mundane information, which he did, or kill someone that got in his way, which was the very first thing he did in the pilot when he killed Terry Crowley, a member of his team, for informing on them.

The only difference between the Strike Team and Samcro is that the former carry badges. Mackey's team was no more moral or noble than Samcro except that Samcro has a sense of family about their club.

I love both these shows for what they are, which happen to take place in the same universe. Saying you despise SOA for essentially the same reasons you love The Shield is a bit puzzling.

I liked The Shield a lot. It wasnt nearly as in the gutter as SoA, and the characters seemed more balanced overall. And I must say, I am quite pleasantly surprised you summarized the show in this way:



. I dont find the lifestyle of bikers or ex-cons or gang-like interpersonal relationships interesting. I do not find prison or jails or criminals interesting. It is why I dont like mob shows or gang shows or drug shows or any show which makes somebody evil/bad/perverted the protagonist/hero of the show. Anything "seedy". My first rejection of a film/show based in this belief was Pretty Baby (1978) with Brooke Shields. The movie was about a 12-year old prostitute in New Orleans, who lived in a brothel and lost her virginity to a drunk. Pedophilia, prostitution, and rape...all in one film! . Not my cuppa.

Found a "wedge" I see

 

[Overmind One]

Found a "wedge" I see

What do you mean?

 

[Bluce Ree]

Yeah I know the SOA dudes are criminals, what I mean is they have no boundaries. In SHIELD at least they were cops and had authority to act-often times in gray area and others just criminal. What I don't like in SOA is that they THINK they are the town cops, that they can somehow do a better job-which they may-but they have no legal authority. The strike team knew they had to act within limits or be found out-the SOA guys just do whatever the f they want without considerations-like stealing an ambulance in broad daylight

Not sure what you're getting at here. This show is about a motorcycle club who essentially own the town, so to speak. This is typical mob-style story telling. You're making it sound like you have a personal beef with them as if they're real, dude.

The strike team did a lot of shit in broad daylight as well. Are you sure you watched the same Shield everyone else did?

It is just too campy and cliche. Ep I just watched is when they need to pay of the Irish 200k for the AK's. Gemma goes to the "porn queen" to ask for cash--their entire conversation is just straight out expected and cliche "I took 2 dicks in the ass for yrs to get my director's chair, I don't owe anything to the Club" "Without the club and Otto you would have never got those dicks out of your ass"

Some of the idea's/writing is just lame-like in the ep when Jax and Tig go to the hospital looking for a way to get to the skeletons dug up (2 mayans and Lowell Sr)--It is a small town right? So why show Jax and Tig walking in the hospital-supposedly incognito by only removing their club vests? Everyone in town knows who they are, whats the point of showing this? 2 greasy haired hop abouts, wanna be badasses are not going to "blend in" with hospital staff-some stuff is just laughable-like when they have "Peg Bundy" Gemma give threats.

Seems like a part of the creative team from SHIELD is not on this show's team or they are putting in half an effort

One short thought on how I see the 2 being different. In SHIELD we see the Strike team and other cops going about cases and shenanigans. During these, we see brief glimpses of gang life with the los mags and 19'rs. In SOA its as if they are making a show one sided only about one of those gangs-there just are not enough dimensions to the story--even when you take away the immorality of their actions, the story is just kind of shallow. But I'll give it a chance to see if it gets better.

I didn't say I despise it-just don't see it having the same entertainment value like what I came to expect from the TPTB's given SHIELD's quality.

Dude, you keep calling them the 19ers. It's the 9ers, not the 19ers. You ABSOLUTELY sure you watched The Shield and not, maybe, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.?

You know that Kurt Sutter is the writer for both The Shield and SOA, right? The same tired-ass cliches were all over The Shield as well. These shows work so well because they attempt to mimic raw life, the life of these characters and their environment. They don't spice up the dialog with Hollywoodesque style prose. They try to inject realism into the storytelling and both have done an excellent job of portraying the other side of the tracks.

I get the idea you went into watching SOA with a prejudice of what you're gonna expect and are continuing to watch it through those foggy glasses. If you can try watching the show objectively without trying to find fault where there isn't any you may enjoy it for what it is. Otherwise, my suggestion is to just stop now because your perception won't change and you won't enjoy it if you insist on watching it with a preconceived notion and expectation that you will simply just hate it.

 

[OMNI]

Not sure what you're getting at here. This show is about a motorcycle club who essentially own the town, so to speak. This is typical mob-style story telling. You're making it sound like you have a personal beef with them as if they're real, dude.

The strike team did a lot of shit in broad daylight as well. Are you sure you watched the same Shield everyone else did?



Dude, you keep calling them the 19ers. It's the 9ers, not the 19ers. You ABSOLUTELY sure you watched The Shield and not, maybe, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.?

You know that Kurt Sutter is the writer for both The Shield and SOA, right? The same tired-ass cliches were all over The Shield as well. These shows work so well because they attempt to mimic raw life, the life of these characters and their environment. They don't spice up the dialog with Hollywoodesque style prose. They try to inject realism into the storytelling and both have done an excellent job of portraying the other side of the tracks.

I get the idea you went into watching SOA with a prejudice of what you're gonna expect and are continuing to watch it through those foggy glasses. If you can try watching the show objectively without trying to find fault where there isn't any you may enjoy it for what it is. Otherwise, my suggestion is to just stop now because your perception won't change and you won't enjoy it if you insist on watching it with a preconceived notion and expectation that you will simply just hate it.

dude why you even trying? facedesk*

 

[Overmind One]

dude why you even trying? facedesk*

See? Here is a perfect opportunity to tell us to get off this thread because this thread is a fan thread of Sons of Anarchy, not a whine thread for people like yongjin and myself, right?

 

[OMNI]

nope whine all you like, however arguing with moralizers who just dont get it and seem to be utterly confused in regards to what show they have watched previously and are comparing this one to is beyond pointless and I am whining at bluce for even trying, he should have seen the confusion in the above posts and just walked away considering they are a clear indication and warning.

 

[Bluce Ree]

See? Here is a perfect opportunity to tell us to get off this thread because this thread is a fan thread of Sons of Anarchy, not a whine thread for people like yongjin and myself, right?

yongjin has his preconceived notions he's unable to get past, in spite of liking this show's predecessor, which is of equal caliber and content written by the same writer. He's still trying to watch an entire season and give it as fair a shake as he's capable of giving regardless of whether he doesn't recognize that SOA is nearly identical in content and writing to The Shield.

You, on the other hand, are just a whiner who judges books by their covers.

 

[Bluce Ree]

nope whine all you like, however arguing with moralizers who just dont get it and seem to be utterly confused in regards to what show they have watched previously and are comparing this one to is beyond pointless and I am whining at bluce for even trying, he should have seen the confusion in the above posts and just walked away considering they are a clear indication and warning.

Meh, call me an optimist.


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[YJ02]

Not sure what you're getting at here. This show is about a motorcycle club who essentially own the town, so to speak. This is typical mob-style story telling. You're making it sound like you have a personal beef with them as if they're real, dude.

The strike team did a lot of shit in broad daylight as well. Are you sure you watched the same Shield everyone else did?



Dude, you keep calling them the 19ers. It's the 9ers, not the 19ers. You ABSOLUTELY sure you watched The Shield and not, maybe, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.?

You know that Kurt Sutter is the writer for both The Shield and SOA, right? The same tired-ass cliches were all over The Shield as well. These shows work so well because they attempt to mimic raw life, the life of these characters and their environment. They don't spice up the dialog with Hollywoodesque style prose. They try to inject realism into the storytelling and both have done an excellent job of portraying the other side of the tracks.

I get the idea you went into watching SOA with a prejudice of what you're gonna expect and are continuing to watch it through those foggy glasses. If you can try watching the show objectively without trying to find fault where there isn't any you may enjoy it for what it is. Otherwise, my suggestion is to just stop now because your perception won't change and you won't enjoy it if you insist on watching it with a preconceived notion and expectation that you will simply just hate it.

Yeah man, finished it last week and:

"Antwon Mitchell is a drug kingpin who, having been released from a lengthy prison sentence, tried to reinvent himself as an upstanding Black community leader out to aid the African-American citizens of Farmington. However, he has secretly secured power as the most powerful drug boss in the district, leading a gang called the One-Niners and secretly flooding Farmington with black tar heroin."

from: http://theshield.wikia.com/wiki/Antwon_Mitchell
or
http://theshield.wikia.com/wiki/One-Niners

Maybe, for whatever reason they changed it in SOA? I noticed in s1 ep 1, the characters used one niners, but since then the characters have just been saying niners as you have so astutely pointed out

Right, got it, SHIELD was raw depiction of real life cops (the RAMPART la police scandal is cited as its inspiration and the series was originally meant to be called "rampart" but changed after the series was greenlit) SOA is based on some bullshit fantasy world land of non conformist drop outs and people who flunked out of the 60's flower child scene. Another words SHIELD showed bad cops (who mostly did good things in between)-Mackay, indeed a sociopath, stole money for what he saw a legit reason-supporting his family. SOA is depicting a fiction based on a fringe, barely existing, extra legal (at best) group of social deviants.

Don't fret man, I am still going to watch it-perhaps it will become more appealing if/when some of the sleazier dirtbags get killed off-I am thinking something like Jax is going to find out that Clay-and maybe his mom-killed Jax's dad-- a scenario intro'd by substitution when they showed that Lowell's dad was killed by Clay and Clay and Gemma's reaction in how to deal with Jax finding out about that fact. A portent for the future perhaps?

I've made it a point not to look through the thread so I don't get "spoiled"

Sucks they killed off the Jay Karnes character--the ATF chic is not a very good replacement for him--they have her overacting IMO

 

[YJ02]

What do you mean?

a wedge between you and bluce--I finally discovered something the 2 of you do not agree on

 

[Bluce Ree]

SOA is based on some bullshit fantasy world land of non conformist drop outs and people who flunked out of the 60's flower child scene.

I think I'm gonna stop you there. I know some ex-bikers. One of my close friends is an ex-enforcer for the Hell's Angels (he's now a competitive bodybuilder), which isn't a secret. What you see as "pure fantasy" is not that far from the reality of life in that world. The depiction isn't that far removed from reality.

I can go further into commentary by bringing in real world comparisons and examples but it isn't my place to comment on things of which I took no part directly and aren't mine to share.

Sutter is known to hang with these people. In fact, a few of the actors are actual Hell's Angels members (i.e. Happy) and they've even had some high profile, prominent Hell's Angels members as guest stars, such as Chuck Zito, former president of the NY chapter of the Hell's Angels.

Side note: I've met Chuck Zito several times at a club in Manhattan I used to frequent back during my crazy days about 8 years ago.

I'm sure you've seen shit during your service that would make a regular civilian's eyes roll in ridicule and disbelief if it were depicted on TV or the movies.






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[Overmind One]

yongjin has his preconceived notions he's unable to get past, in spite of liking this show's predecessor, which is of equal caliber and content written by the same writer. He's still trying to watch an entire season and give it as fair a shake as he's capable of giving regardless of whether he doesn't recognize that SOA is nearly identical in content and writing to The Shield.

You, on the other hand, are just a whiner who judges books by their covers.

Well....I did watch two episodes (the pilot).

Not my cup of tea. The only places I see these type of folks is in run down areas like Riverside flats and Ventura County. In California, you just dont have groups like this where people can see them. The same repulsion I feel in real life for people like that carries over to the TV show for me. I cant relate. That is all.

 

[Overmind One]

I think I'm gonna stop you there. I know some ex-bikers. One of my close friends is an ex-enforcer for the Hell's Angels (he's now a competitive bodybuilder), which isn't a secret. What you see as "pure fantasy" is not that far from the reality of life in that world. The depiction isn't that far removed from reality.

I can go further into commentary by bringing in real world comparisons and examples but it isn't my place to comment on things of which I took no part directly and aren't mine to share.

Sutter is known to hang with these people. In fact, a few of the actors are actual Hell's Angels members (i.e. Happy) and they've even had some high profile, prominent Hell's Angels members as guest stars, such as Chuck Zito, former president of the NY chapter of the Hell's Angels.

Side note: I've met Chuck Zito several times at a club in Manhattan I used to frequent back during my crazy days about 8 years ago.

I'm sure you've seen shit during your service that would make a regular civilian's eyes roll in ridicule and disbelief if it were depicted on TV or the movies.






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Dude, please dont tell me you have a Harley. You have respect for the Hells Angels? What defines a "prominent" Hells Angels biker?

http://www.heraldonline.com/2013/06/19/4959822/rock-hill-hells-angels-members.html

COLUMBIA — Flanked by a table sagging under the weight of almost 100 machine guns, rifles and pistols seized from the Rock Hill Hells Angels, prosecutors and police declared Wednesday that the “Rock Hell Nomads” crime gang had been vanquished.

That declaration came after the last of 16 motorcycle gang outlaws had been sentenced to a total of more than 100 years in federal prison after convictions on racketeering, drugs, weapons and other charges.

In front of the table of guns rested dozens of pounds of cocaine and methamphetamine – drugs seized from the Hells Angels that will not ruin lives.

“This table is a table full of threats – that’s how the Hells Angels operate, through threats,” U.S. Attorney Bill Nettles said. “The Hells Angels is an organized criminal group, a hierarchal system, a gang system.

You admire these guys? I find that hard to believe. I see all biker gangs like this. I cant think of anything positive about riding around on loud motorcycles and wearing leather covered with skulls, tatted down and carrying around sleazy, slutty females on the back of their hogs.

Really?

 

[Bluce Ree]

Well....I did watch two episodes (the pilot).

Uh-huh.


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